Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Padman
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I've been reading up a bit on some of the sea states you need to navigate through to get to the Antarctic region, and though the AOPS is designed for use in the North Atlantic, even with the stabilizers it may not be all that suitable for the NZ mission. The conditions you can get during the transit seem truly awe inspiring! That might be the reason for a big, long, heavy ship. I have no doubt that once it had arrived in Antarctica the AOPS would be more than up to the task, but it might not survive the trip there with a functioning crew! In any case, I wish NZ good luck with her search, and will be following this with great interest.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
I see this everywhere... and agree.. there is a huge, huge difference between ice strengthened and ice breaker. It will most likely be ice strengthened to Polar class 6 or outside chance to Polar class 5.
Both the current OPV's and HMNZS Aotearoa are Polar Class 6
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
I believe this to be the wrong time for this project. The geo strategic balance is in great change.
The only priorities should mine sweeping (uuv) capable hulls and long-range convoy escorts. Far greater than 3 of each. Which also encompasses maritime rotary aviation. Manned and unmanned.
This sopv to me shows the inertia and myopia in our public, government and security agencies.
The only priorities should mine sweeping (uuv) capable hulls and long-range convoy escorts. Far greater than 3 of each. Which also encompasses maritime rotary aviation. Manned and unmanned.
This sopv to me shows the inertia and myopia in our public, government and security agencies.
This is exactly the time for such a project. Actually it should be on the fast track and there should be at least two ships with more teeth. The Antarctic is a resource rich area, plus it is also a strategically important region. In 20 years time the Antarctic Treaty is up for renegotiation and there are countries and corporations that want to access those resources, preferably unhindered. NZ has a territory claim to part of the continent and to keep that claim we will need to be able to back it up, by force if needs be. There is also the issue of illegal ànd unregulated fishing that happens with monotonous regularity down there and it's our responsibility for enforcement of the rules. You can't interdict and board boats from satellites or P-8s.
The strategic side of the argument is that we know that Russian SSBN's have been patrolling that far south. From here they can launch their MIRVs over the pole towards northern hemisphere targets, from a region that the US and others are less expectant of. I would suspect that PRC SSBNs will eventually undertake similar missions when their SSBN's achieve better reliability, longer range and more sea time.
FYI the Kreigsmarine operated in the Southern Ocean during WW2.
I actually suggest that you look at NZs total strategic environment before running off on a platform centric tangent.
IMHO both sides of this argument have value, but the reality is that the NZ armed forces are hopelessly under funded and under resourced to carry out either our peacetime responsibilities or protecting our sovereignty and freedom in a time of conflict. It is interesting that the recent Australian defence budget was from memory $A44.7 B, so that to be on par on a population basses we would need to be in the $9NZB to $10B range and on a GDP basses about the $NZ6B to $7B range. To put it bluntly, we are not even in the ball park and to argue either peace time responsibilities or war time responsibilities are more important when we are this far short of any realism by successive governments is some what futile. My own opinion is that you need to get your basic defence of your country in order first and then move you asperations outward to cover other priorities.
I tend to agree with both Shanesworld and Ngatimozart. Two new Polar 5 (unless you plan operating in ice during the winter months) vessels with more displacement and range and better sensors to replace Otago and Wellington early. Treasury will want multi role in terms of the civilian community, and I don't have an issue with that. I would however want to see some ability to repurpose for military use (either as a Logistics ship which makes the Chile design beneficial (has some similarities with the Monawai), or fitting towed array ASW. However the strategic balance is changing and serious consideration needs to be given to our MCM capability to ensure ports and trade remain open and our ability to operate on a sustained basis in the Pacific (both from a presence perspective and intell one). This will become more important if the PRC establish a permanent military presence in the Pacific (which they seem to have a desire for). The Type 31 might fit the bill for achieving that and escort duties (I note original Post WWII recommendations for an escort force was 6 ships). If we are saying that the Pacific is our back yard then the proposed 2 ship Landing capability needs to continue, but on a common design imho. Within that the army needs to have an say in the design, but also needs to sort its act out in how it is structured to project power into the pacific. From a maritime forces perspective we need to be looking a the some more specialized capabilities for Pacific operations (i.e. covert landing of units). Cost will be a driving factor and already in the above (2 Polar 5, 6 FFH, 2 LPHD) you are at 10 ships without including Aotearoa, Manawanui and without including any future MCM capability (even if UUV, USuV) or the future of the inshore patrol capability within the RNZN. There will be some trade offs in achieving this level of capability and replacing the ANZAC with Type 26 (or similar) might be one of them, in order to show how important the South Pacific is to NZ.
NZ (ie. the politicians) are completely on another ball field Rob c. Third division, children's league. Until this resourcing based on threat allocation is re-aligned, it shall remain that way and 'Kiwi' is sponging off Oz.
Lucasnz, the fighting navy force structure that you suggest is IMHO spot on. It requires an accelerated (correction, make that warp speed) crash FFH program with Hunter Class procurement now. Definitely, not 2035.
Lucasnz, the fighting navy force structure that you suggest is IMHO spot on. It requires an accelerated (correction, make that warp speed) crash FFH program with Hunter Class procurement now. Definitely, not 2035.
If you went with that force structure the Hunter class would be out. The capital costs alone, not to mention the crew costs would be politically unacceptable. Hence my suggestion for the Type 31.
Out of left field, How about convert Canterbury to be the SOPV and build 2 new LPHD's, one as the replacement for Canterbury and one as the proposed ship. Canterbury would need to be reballasted and have additional fuel stowage, but she is big and fast enough and one of the roles she was originally said to do was as a patrol ship. I am not sure whether she was ever Ice strengthened . Worth some discussion?
Canterbury is not fit for any role in the southern ocean. A RORO vessel from a conventional design is asking for disaster. The centre of gravity is way too high. Ive sailed for many years accross Cook Strait and that does not compere to the Southern Ocean although there has been the odd memorable voyage. Sorry but I would cross Canterbury off your list.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
IIRC Canterbury was indeed ice-strengthened like the OPV's, however while the intent was a Multi-Role Vessel ranging from RORO sealift to offshore patrolling, it was (IMO at least) a fine example of trying to cram too many divergent roles and ending up with a vessel which really was unsuitable for most. Given the problems the RNZN ran into with HMNZS Charles Upham when that RORO vessel was lightly laden, one would have thought that decision-makers would have kept that in mind.
TBH though, I rather consider the Project Protector programme as a whole to be an example of what happens when gov't tries to get away with achieving defence outcomes on the cheap. Yes, the RNZN needed new/more vessels at the time because the size of the fleet had been allowed to shrink too much, and a number of the vessels in service were due (or past due) for replacement, yet none of the vessels seem like they will see their full planned service lives because none were ever fully fit for purpose.
Nighthawk.NZ
Well-Known Member
Since Canterbury is a RORO vessel, she wouldn't be Roll On Roll Off... she would just roll and roll and roll..
Yes Canterbury was Ice strengthened but it was soon realised that she would never do that roll and roll and roll as part of her future agenda and missions.
CJohn
Active Member
With regard to the SOPV, there is an interesting design building at present by Vard Marine for the Norwegian Coast Guard, that being the Jan Mayen Class, the first of three will be launched in 2022. These vessels look very impressive, but at 136.4m loa may be too big to meet requirement.
More info at Jan Mayen-Class Vessels, Norway - Naval Technology
Specifications are:
More info at Jan Mayen-Class Vessels, Norway - Naval Technology
Specifications are:
- Displacement: 9,800 tons
- Length: 136.4 meters (447.4 ft) loa
- Beam: 22 meters (72.16 ft)
- Draft: 6.2 meter (20.3 ft)
- Speed: 22 knots.
- Range: 10000 nm.
- Accommodate up to 100 personnel.
The actual problem we have is the dearth of funding for NZDF and until that and the political attitudes towards defence changes, we are not going to achieve much. For to long pollies and treasury have treated defence as a luxury, not a necessity.
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
Thank you Ngati.
I was aware of the Kreigsmarine activities.
I'm also aware of Atlantis and Automedon and the result of that encounter.
My concern is for the total strategic picture.
800 ships. 6000 port visits. 2.5 % pa Hull insurance on average. Goes up to 100% to %250 per day payable per day if you transit a Warzone. Null and void if venture into a War one where merchant vessels are targeted. War insurance has to be taken on top if you do.
I had a project be delayed by lack of hardware - that was on a ship that bypassed nz as it wasn't worth their time waiting for the ports mess to sorts itself out. Apparently it was 1 of 7 ships go do that in that month. In peacetime.
If we can't go and escort ships to our 7 ports and keep those open then southern ocean exploitation will be curtailed.
I do understand the value in the Southern Ocean. But I would first go someway to securing our current trade routes and access. Then look to the sopv.
With treasury, the greens and peace action aotearoa I believe it would be easier to get 6 frigates or 4 frigates and 4 corvettes then a sopv then the other way round. I frankly don't know the force balance but we only have between 680 ish and 900 ish sailors to work (in peacetime).
But as I understand it a 16 knot minimally armed (m242?) sopv would not be used to hunt a ssbn. And as I understand it SSBN's had hunter killers in boxes on the periphery of their patrol routes. If you thinking a more sensor capable vessel with more teeth then I agree but I do not see that ship coming in this acquisition. So I don't get your logic on that one.
We need warships. To borrow from the infantry "to close with and destroy the enemy" or at the very least to provide a bullet catcher for the merchant ships we need to keep coming inorder to survive.
The why would be - Russia and China are motivated by failing demographies. That is happening now. Russia will soon have half the available military man power to draw from (I think that is 2025) and China starts running out of 25 year old males in 2024 to maintain its current growth. They have taken risky gambles to date already. I expect they will stumble into a major confrontation by those dates.
Anyway that's where I stand. And I have yet to see anything to make me move from that.
One of the problems that I see with NZ, is that your government see diplomacy as the front line of defence. That diplomacy has now taken a “walk on egg shells” approach with China, and frankly, it’s insulting to NZ other friends.
NZ needs a credible defence force, which it has not. The people who man the NZDF are top notch and do really well with what they have, however, they need the appropriate tools provided to them, which they just don’t have, it’s actually criminal the way that the NZ government has allowed the NZDF to operate the way they do. It’s against their own code of conduct.
NZ needs a credible defence force, which it has not. The people who man the NZDF are top notch and do really well with what they have, however, they need the appropriate tools provided to them, which they just don’t have, it’s actually criminal the way that the NZ government has allowed the NZDF to operate the way they do. It’s against their own code of conduct.
@Shanesworld Do you understand why those ships are bypassing NZ?
Even in wartime having x warships capable of convoy escort isn't going to make much of a difference to global shipping firms. If there's a shooting war going on they and their insurers are going to avoid the region like the plague. During WW1 and WW2 NZ had one of the largest shipping companies in the world, Union Steam Ship Company, originally founded in Dunedin and hated by all of the other British Empire shipping companies. So we had a goodly sized merchant fleet. Now our merchant fleet is non existent and we are totally reliant upon foreign shipping lines for our maritime shipping requirements. So when push comes to shove we cannot force any of those merchant ships to come here nor can we legally impress any of them into our service. That creates a tad large problem for us which successive governments have appeared to ignore.
WRT to RFI that the MOD has released, that's all it is, a RFI and it states clearly that it's for market research purposes to see what's available. There's a significant amount of work that will have to happen before the design is finalised and a RFT is issued. Whilst the desired parameters have been released, these haven't been finalised yet. There is a DWP due out next year and the findings of that may or may not change requirements for the SOPV. Regardless of your claims POV, NZ still has sovereignty, international and statutory responsibilities for the Southern Ocean down to and including Antarctica that require a ship (preferably ships) that have the capabilities to operate safely and effectively in the region.
Even in wartime having x warships capable of convoy escort isn't going to make much of a difference to global shipping firms. If there's a shooting war going on they and their insurers are going to avoid the region like the plague. During WW1 and WW2 NZ had one of the largest shipping companies in the world, Union Steam Ship Company, originally founded in Dunedin and hated by all of the other British Empire shipping companies. So we had a goodly sized merchant fleet. Now our merchant fleet is non existent and we are totally reliant upon foreign shipping lines for our maritime shipping requirements. So when push comes to shove we cannot force any of those merchant ships to come here nor can we legally impress any of them into our service. That creates a tad large problem for us which successive governments have appeared to ignore.
WRT to RFI that the MOD has released, that's all it is, a RFI and it states clearly that it's for market research purposes to see what's available. There's a significant amount of work that will have to happen before the design is finalised and a RFT is issued. Whilst the desired parameters have been released, these haven't been finalised yet. There is a DWP due out next year and the findings of that may or may not change requirements for the SOPV. Regardless of your claims POV, NZ still has sovereignty, international and statutory responsibilities for the Southern Ocean down to and including Antarctica that require a ship (preferably ships) that have the capabilities to operate safely and effectively in the region.
Shanesworld
Well-Known Member
Okay. Thank you and goodbye.
The Idea was from left field and I did say that you would have to re-ballast the ship and that would be to change the center of gravity to a more optimal location and remember if you get the center too low the rolling gets very viscous. The lake class patrol boats of the 70's and 80's which were delivered with a lot lighter armament than designed for and had a lower than optimum C of G were a classic example of this and I had a personal experience of this. the Other mods would be to eliminate the stern hull doors, stern and side and add compartments to fill in the lower open deck area that currently is connected to the stern door as this area is a known problem area in this type of ship. While this will not happen it does not mean that with mods it could not be made to happen and as has been stated Canterbury was designed to do patrols and that was the reason she was fitted with the 25mm gun (Hellen Clarks Government never fitted a weapon to anything that was not army unless they had too) and she was ice strengthened. The big mods would be as stated to lower the C of G to an optimum and break up the low down free surface flooding area. The other thing to remember is that Canterbury has done missions to the sub Antarctic islands so she has been used down in the southern ocean.
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