Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Where did you get the illustration from? Looks interesting.
I think that you are being somewhat overly sensitive about any perceived potential anti Australian political sentiments originating out of NZ.
Well if it was under keys, then NZ Australia had a open love interests in each other. Turnbull had much love for keys. Still ditching the US equipment for euro. Ditching AU commonality. The AU NZ relationship is multidimentional, and trust and friendship varies a lot on issues. I could see it being politically difficult to sell an AU centred upgrade to NZ frigates, even if the AU/NZ relationship is tight. This is understandable, in Australia individual states don't trust each other on projects and offers.

The new LS launcher is pretty neat and will allow fitment to smaller ships. Nulka and CAMM can be paired together. But thats a 2017+ thing.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
7th



Well if it was under keys, then NZ Australia had a open love interests in each other. Turnbull had much love for keys. Still ditching the US equipment for euro. Ditching AU commonality. The AU NZ relationship is multidimentional, and trust and friendship varies a lot on issues. I could see it being politically difficult to sell an AU centred upgrade to NZ frigates, even if the AU/NZ relationship is tight. This is understandable, in Australia individual states don't trust each other on projects and offers.

The new LS launcher is pretty neat and will allow fitment to smaller ships. Nulka and CAMM can be paired together. But thats a 2017+ thing.
Like I keep repeating, it was based on what was available at the time. The NZ government has become risk adverse in defence acquisitions and that is why preference is given for capabilities already in use with FVEY partners. It has nothing to do with preferring Euro gear over Yankee gear. Your own government has bought plenty of Euro gear when equivalent Yankee gear was available.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
where did this notion come from...????
Not sure, especially since the NZ versions of the ANZAC-class frigates had always been a little different from the RAN versions by virtue of being armed with the Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS.

What I remain uncertain about, is whether or not the RNZN decisions to keep the Mk 15 and replace the 8-cell Mk 41 VLS for a VLS with 20 Sea Ceptor missiles provide better overall defensive capability than had the RNZN adopted quad-packed ESSM.

At this point, the RAN frigates have seen an array (pun intended) of upgrades installed, which have negatively impacted topweight and required additional ballasting, which I believe has in turn have led to a reduced flank speed and freeboard. What is an interesting mental exercise it trying to judge the capability value of 20 Sea Ceptor + CIWS vs. 32 ESSM, and also try to determine whether or not the improvements in the CMS and new Kiwi frigate sensors provide more capability than would have been available aboard RAN frigates circa ~2012. If memory serves, that is approximately when NZ initiated their frigate upgrade programme with RFI's.

Going forward, I have concerns about how viable the RNZN combatant force is going to be and remain, particularly in light of the likely worsening security situation in the Asia-Pacific region. Once both frigates are back and available for full service, they should be able to meet RNZN, at least for a few years. Whether or not the upgrades are sufficient to provide another ~15 years of service is something I question the reasonability of think. Same goes for just having a pair of frigates in service.

Personally I believe that NZ needs to bring the replacement frigate programme forward a few years, since I believe that NZ will need both more and more capable frigates, sooner rather than later. Whether or not gov't is or can be convinced of that, and therefore the need to make additional funding available, is another matter entirely.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Like I keep repeating, it was based on what was available at the time. The NZ government has become risk adverse in defence acquisitions and that is why preference is given for capabilities already in use with FVEY partners. It has nothing to do with preferring Euro gear over Yankee gear. Your own government has bought plenty of Euro gear when equivalent Yankee gear was available.
This is true, Oz seems to oscillate at times. Although I imagine Oz will be much more skeptical in the future on certain platforms given recent issues. Although probably more about specific promises from certain European companies and a continental approach. Certainly. However on munitions, Australia does tend to stick to American. The Mu90 is probably an interesting case in point (and a case where Australia acquired and operates both types on the same vessel - and for how much longer). Arguably the CMS330 is more "American" than the Saab 9lv. I think I have come around on the combat system change, I am now thinking the CMS330 makes loads of sense for NZ.

And I assume the CMS selection had a lot to do with the entire upgrade occurring in Canada? Given they had to integrate it?.

where did this notion come from...????
I think I am phrasing my question perhaps too definitively. Sorry.

What is an interesting mental exercise it trying to judge the capability value of 20 Sea Ceptor + CIWS vs. 32 ESSM, and also try to determine whether or not the improvements in the CMS and new Kiwi frigate sensors provide more capability than would have been available aboard RAN frigates circa ~2012. If memory serves, that is approximately when NZ initiated their frigate upgrade programme with RFI's.
2012 is an interesting time, the Exls even as an insert fire option didn't happen until late 2013. So then before that it would have been seawolf and Sylver? Timing does seem critical.

Here is a link about the announcement of CAMM Oct 2013.

It was widely thought that in NZ case it would be dropped into the mk41. But the decision might have been made before that fire proved the concept, and the mk41 adapter was developed in amazingly quick time <10 months from a licensing deal being struck, being a priority, linking euro and US systems and markets.

It also discusses possible use of the Sylver launcher, which is often promoted as being more compact and lighter (but which may not be the case, depending on application). Also the evolution of what the Type 26 was going to carry in terms of VLS.

Australia started upgrading its ANZACs back in 2010 and completed the first trials back in 2011. The Australian ASMD upgrade would have been a known quantity, but has limitations and downsides. The FFG up was also met with questionable value (Australias Hazard(ous) Frigate Upgrades: Done at Last) and the Anzac ASMD was with significant risk. All upgrades on all AU Anzacs ships completed by 2017 (with perhaps surprising success and value), at which point the AMCAP rolled out moving things to the next level. Then later the BlkII ESSM will roll out, and other future upgrades.

Of course at any stage politics can interfere, Australia delayed its Hobart's construction (or subs, like for a decade), purely for political reasons, blowing out costs and increasing time. It can happen to anyone, and sits above and beyond the project scope and control.

Going back to 2012 - NZ and Australia just seem to want different things. Australia definitely wanted ESSM, 32 missile fire power, the biggest and most advanced radar it could fit (and derisk its future frigates) and was willing to compromise sea keeping, growth margins, and a CIWS. NZ found CAMM appealing, for logical reasons, including not requiring illuminators, and being a more independent munition. Better and more capable in the short to medium range and offering features Bk II may eventually offer, but RAN has not yet got, also strength in a purely defensive role, with its CIWS. CMS330 is a nice system and gives future support going forward. AU 9LV is likely to evolve into something a bit different as its going to be integrated with Aegis on combatants (and CMS330 being evolved out of aegis libraries and standards).

While ESSM has a strong minimum engagement distance, its not zero. Any threat <.5-1km is likely to be too close to engage with ESSM. Australian Anzacs have a weakness, its asymmetric threats. Australia has a vision of probably more higher order threats, at greater distance. But Australia does have other assets. Hobarts, LHD with tigers, Hellfire from romeos, fast air support. Its unlikely to be out of its depth in that regard.

CAMM has similar (perhaps slightly even better) minimum engagement distance, and with a CIWS, can do something about fast moving threats within that range. NZ probably has a vision of dealing with closer less conventional threats.

Sorry, just a bit of exploring
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I believe the ER was test launched in 2019


I don't know the results of said test... but then again I haven't looked into it.

I wonder does the mushroom farm the the ANZACS have are they able to use the ER or is that for the standard CAMM only...??? I haven't looked in to that either my guess is not considering the dimensions are different. If it was me designing it I would have the and insert on the tube for the smaller missile and if you want to upgrade you take out the insert... but that is just me...
IIRC the Sea Wolf mushrooms had to be extended upwards slightly for the standard CAMM, & CAMM-ER is about 50cm longer.

Tests have been proceeding well, from what I've read, & as well as the land-based version being ordered by Italy, naval CAMM-ER has been ordered by an unnamed foreign customer under the name Albatros NG, reflecting that it replaces the Aspide missile of the original Albatros system.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Mk-41 VLS was the 8 cell self defence version, that's been discontinued since about 2014. I am given to understand that ExLS pods were not available when the original project contracts were signed.
Self defence length is what I thought they probably were, given that for Sea Sparrow the bigger versions would be a waste of space & weight. Thanks for confirming it.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is true, Oz seems to oscillate at times. Although I imagine Oz will be much more skeptical in the future on certain platforms given recent issues. Although probably more about specific promises from certain European companies and a continental approach. Certainly. However on munitions, Australia does tend to stick to American. The Mu90 is probably an interesting case in point (and a case where Australia acquired and operates both types on the same vessel - and for how much longer). Arguably the CMS330 is more "American" than the Saab 9lv. I think I have come around on the combat system change, I am now thinking the CMS330 makes loads of sense for NZ.

And I assume the CMS selection had a lot to do with the entire upgrade occurring in Canada? Given they had to integrate it?.


I think I am phrasing my question perhaps too definitively. Sorry.


2012 is an interesting time, the Exls even as an insert fire option didn't happen until late 2013. So then before that it would have been seawolf and Sylver? Timing does seem critical.

Here is a link about the announcement of CAMM Oct 2013.

It was widely thought that in NZ case it would be dropped into the mk41. But the decision might have been made before that fire proved the concept, and the mk41 adapter was developed in amazingly quick time <10 months from a licensing deal being struck, being a priority, linking euro and US systems and markets.

It also discusses possible use of the Sylver launcher, which is often promoted as being more compact and lighter (but which may not be the case, depending on application). Also the evolution of what the Type 26 was going to carry in terms of VLS.

Australia started upgrading its ANZACs back in 2010 and completed the first trials back in 2011. The Australian ASMD upgrade would have been a known quantity, but has limitations and downsides. The FFG up was also met with questionable value (Australias Hazard(ous) Frigate Upgrades: Done at Last) and the Anzac ASMD was with significant risk. All upgrades on all AU Anzacs ships completed by 2017 (with perhaps surprising success and value), at which point the AMCAP rolled out moving things to the next level. Then later the BlkII ESSM will roll out, and other future upgrades.

Of course at any stage politics can interfere, Australia delayed its Hobart's construction (or subs, like for a decade), purely for political reasons, blowing out costs and increasing time. It can happen to anyone, and sits above and beyond the project scope and control.

Going back to 2012 - NZ and Australia just seem to want different things. Australia definitely wanted ESSM, 32 missile fire power, the biggest and most advanced radar it could fit (and derisk its future frigates) and was willing to compromise sea keeping, growth margins, and a CIWS. NZ found CAMM appealing, for logical reasons, including not requiring illuminators, and being a more independent munition. Better and more capable in the short to medium range and offering features Bk II may eventually offer, but RAN has not yet got, also strength in a purely defensive role, with its CIWS. CMS330 is a nice system and gives future support going forward. AU 9LV is likely to evolve into something a bit different as its going to be integrated with Aegis on combatants (and CMS330 being evolved out of aegis libraries and standards).

While ESSM has a strong minimum engagement distance, its not zero. Any threat <.5-1km is likely to be too close to engage with ESSM. Australian Anzacs have a weakness, its asymmetric threats. Australia has a vision of probably more higher order threats, at greater distance. But Australia does have other assets. Hobarts, LHD with tigers, Hellfire from romeos, fast air support. Its unlikely to be out of its depth in that regard.

CAMM has similar (perhaps slightly even better) minimum engagement distance, and with a CIWS, can do something about fast moving threats within that range. NZ probably has a vision of dealing with closer less conventional threats.

Sorry, just a bit of exploring
The RAN ANZAC’s have Romeo with Hellfire and the 12.7mm Mini-Typhoons... Not as strong as an all-round defence with 20mm, 25mm and Hellfire, but they are hardly helpless and have been deployed repeatedly into the Gulf where asymmetric threats dominate...
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In order to quickly obtain a 3rd FFG.

I know i said that the Type 23 is of no use to us, but if we could acquire a RN Type 23, all is not lost. The Chilean Navy are upgrading their 3 ex RN Type 23 and LM Canada are doing it. They are getting the CMS330 as well as Sea Ceptor, plus some other goodies. We could put it straight through a similar upgrade to the Chilean ones. Swap the SSM out for NSM and at the same time fit NSM to our 2 ANZAC FFG. If we got 15 years from the Type 23, that would give us enough time to replace the 2 ANZAC FFG and build a 3rd FNZFFG.

 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
"Royal New Zealand Navy warship HMNZS Aotearoa sails into Sydney Harbour to berth alongside Fleet Base East in Sydney, New South Wales." (Image source ADF Image library : link)
View attachment 48080
Should just leave her based here in Sydney, much more useful on this side of the ditch than over there with the sheep shaggers!!

Cheers,

PS, maybe we could arrange a swap? One Kiwi AOR for one of those live sheep transport ships? So many new girlfriends to choose from hey Bro’s?
 

ozrock62

New Member
Should just leave her based here in Sydney, much more useful on this side of the ditch than over there with the sheep shaggers!!

Cheers,

PS, maybe we could arrange a swap? One Kiwi AOR for one of those live sheep transport ships? So many new girlfriends to choose from hey Bro’s?
Nice looking ship. Do they still plan to mount the CIWS? I think that was on the bow, at least in conceptual photos. Always seemed a wet place to mount that unit.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Should just leave her based here in Sydney, much more useful on this side of the ditch than over there with the sheep shaggers!!

Cheers,

PS, maybe we could arrange a swap? One Kiwi AOR for one of those live sheep transport ships? So many new girlfriends to choose from hey Bro’s?
Hmmm IIRC the Aussies were shagging sheep before sheep appeared in NZ. It comes from being convicts :cool:
 

Hone C

Active Member
In order to quickly obtain a 3rd FFG.

I know i said that the Type 23 is of no use to us, but if we could acquire a RN Type 23, all is not lost. The Chilean Navy are upgrading their 3 ex RN Type 23 and LM Canada are doing it. They are getting the CMS330 as well as Sea Ceptor, plus some other goodies. We could put it straight through a similar upgrade to the Chilean ones. Swap the SSM out for NSM and at the same time fit NSM to our 2 ANZAC FFG. If we got 15 years from the Type 23, that would give us enough time to replace the 2 ANZAC FFG and build a 3rd FNZFFG.
I would be surprised if we could wring 15 years of useful service out of them without a lot of treasure tbh. They were originally designed for 18 years hull life and are fairly worn out now, so would require extensive work to be of much utility.

The five oldest, General Purpose,Type 23 due to be retired within the timeframe are in fairly poor condition. HMS Monmouth has been tied up and stripped of equipment since 2019, and the other four are being run hard prior to retirement.

IMO only a viable option if some frigates are retired early for financial reasons in the upcoming Integrated Review.
 

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Nice looking ship. Do they still plan to mount the CIWS? I think that was on the bow, at least in conceptual photos. Always seemed a wet place to mount that unit.
Fitted for but not with... I believe the Mini typhoons have been installed although I can not find info on that...
 
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