Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

Hate to say it but if you follow this link you'll see why no NZ Govt of any colour is going to throw much $$$ at the NZDF over the next 10-15 years!

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

I'd expect as yet uncommitted projects on the $20Bn plan will be cancelled, deferred, or dumbed right down... we shouldn't kid ourselves otherwise. I'd also say that as it seems increasingly likely NZFirst will be in Govt after the election, COVID will unashamedly be the catalyst to rip up the $20Bn plan. The recent disclosures around China's 'activities' will have diddly-squat impact.

I have read that article and others. Enough to put a sailor off his rum. However Defence has been funded at twice the current rate when the county was in far worse economic conditions, such as during the 1970s and 1980s. The GDP figures were released this morning and they aren't the best, but they aren't the worst either.

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

12.2% contraction of GDP is significant, but when you look at the industries which suffered the greatest impact, such as tourism and hospitality, it's understandable. The government borrowing is at 55% GDP which is rather steep by NZ pollie standards but quite low by international standards so technically the next government of whatever stripe, still has room to move. Regarding NZ First current polls place them in the retirement benchs, but there is only one poll that counts and that one is on 17/10/2020, so we'll wait until after the fat lady has sung and all of the votes counted before we say who's in and who's been kicked into touch. Last election all of the polls got it badly wrong.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Hate to say it but if you follow this link you'll see why no NZ Govt of any colour is going to throw much $$$ at the NZDF over the next 10-15 years!

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

I'd expect as yet uncommitted projects on the $20Bn plan will be cancelled, deferred, or dumbed right down... we shouldn't kid ourselves otherwise. I'd also say that as it seems increasingly likely NZFirst will be in Govt after the election, COVID will unashamedly be the catalyst to rip up the $20Bn plan.

Meh... Seen better... seen worse...

Considering Ron Mark - Defence Minister is NZ First and wants to increase the defense budget... (Admittedly being Ex-Army of course he does) but he wants back up to 2%, and I have a funny feeling it was NZFirst that pushed to keep the $20Bn plan as part of the deal. Though of course I can not confirm that... but Labour was saying before the election they may cut back on that plan... However, they still went ahead with defence buying as part of the $20bn plan during the pandemic with the buying of the Bushmasters etc, and they knew what the books were like then...

Before the coalition part of NZ First defence policy was to re-establish the Fighter Air Wing.

More goes on behind doors than we hear about. So, is it good... No... is it that bad... not really... some economists say it will take 10 years to recover and yet others say probably 2 or 3...

The recent disclosures around China's 'activities' will have diddly-squat impact.

Hard to say... again what is said behind doors and what is said and interpreted by the public are two different things. They will be getting other reports we don't know about and seeing the full picture.

 

[Gibbo]

Meh... Seen better... seen worse...

Considering Ron Mark - Defence Minister is NZ First and wants to increase the defense budget... (Admittedly being Ex-Army of course he does) but he wants back up to 2%, and I have a funny feeling it was NZFirst that pushed to keep the $20Bn plan as part of the deal. Though of course I can not confirm that... but Labour was saying before the election they may cut back on that plan... However, they still went ahead with defence buying as part of the $20bn plan during the pandemic with the buying of the Bushmasters etc, and they knew what the books were like then...

Before the coalition part of NZ First defence policy was to re-establish the Fighter Air Wing.

More goes on behind doors than we hear about. So, is it good... No... is it that bad... not really... some economists say it will take 10 years to recover and yet others say probably 2 or 3...



Hard to say... again what is said behind doors and what is said and interpreted by the public are two different things. They will be getting other reports we don't know about and seeing the full picture.

Yeah look I'll admit there's no science to my logic, it's just an incredibly strong gut feel... maybe being a little too 'glass half empty' eh!?! There have certainly been some top $$$ spent when I didn't expect it... especially the C130J purchase which includes some good bells & whistles, which I remember stating earlier this year that I expected that decision to be deferred.

NZ First was the darling after the last election so it's policies had some clout, but to be fair things have changed in the last 3 years and one is the significantly increased clarity on where the risk is evolving from in our region and the increasing media recognition and discussion of the issue. There's also the related dramatic upswing in defence spending across the Tasman so t's hard to believe pressure won't be going on at diplomatic levels.

With the expected recession now here it would be a good time to invest in the Defence estate renewal as it would see significant $$$ spent on construction that would see a good local spend & job security... an fairly easy sell!

Fingers crossed!

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

She looks weird with out her SPS49 Radar and missing her Phalanx CWIS... looks like something is missing... oh wait... ;-)

@Nighthawk.NZ What is the original source for this image. You have been on here long enough to know the rules about providing sources. By the way linking the image back to your blogsite is unacceptable. We have already banned others for doing the same.

NNgatimozart

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

@Nighthawk.NZ What is the original source for this image. You have been on here long enough to know the rules about providing sources. By the way linking the image back to your blogsite is unacceptable. We have already banned others for doing the same.

NNgatimozart

Thought I did ... with clicking the image...? but obviously it didn't work ... hopefully the link works now???

 

[ASSAIL]

She looks weird with out her SPS49 Radar and missing her Phalanx CWIS... looks like something is missing... oh wait... ;-)

@Nighthawk.NZ What is the original source for this image. You have been on here long enough to know the rules about providing sources. By the way linking the image back to your blogsite is unacceptable. We have already banned others for doing the same.

NNgatimozart

It’s been so long I’d forgotten that you guys owned some frigates.

 

[ngatimozart]

Thought I did ... with clicking the image...? but obviously it didn't work ... hopefully the link works now???

No, you have to cite the link properly. Who owns the image and the url. Just expecting people to click is not good enough. That is not how intellectual property citing works.

 

[ngatimozart]

It’s been so long I’d forgotten that you guys owned some frigates.

Cheeky sh*t and so did some of us

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

No, you have to cite the link properly. Who owns the image and the url. Just expecting people to click is not good enough. That is not how intellectual property citing works.

Well since I have no idea who owns this image, or who uploaded it IMGUR... I have never used IMGUR before and couldn't see any names/usernames saying uploaded by... I have no idea if s/he is the person who took the photo or not? On other posts there is usernames at least... best delete it then... or the best I can do is say Barry in Canada took the photo???

I don't know if there is another version of it where the I cite the image owers name...

Doing a quick Mr Google

Posts uploaded without an account are anonymous and hidden. They cannot be searched and only those people with whom you share the URL will be able to see them. All images uploaded to Imgur are available via their direct URLs at any time, which means they can never be completely secret.

Which is how I came across the image and link.

The image was never on my website and still isn't...? If I took a photo would I have use one these websites like flickr and or Imgur which to be honest I been in trouble be for uploading my own image on other websites... and then had to prove I took it which is impossible ...

Any way I am sure I will make the mistake again. so I just get banned... and what ever

 

[Cadredave]

Well since I have no idea who owns this image, or who uploaded it IMGUR... I have never used IMGUR before and couldn't see any names/usernames saying uploaded by... I have no idea if s/he is the person who took the photo or not? On other posts there is usernames at least... best delete it then... or the best I can do is say Barry in Canada took the photo???

I don't know if there is another version of it where the I cite the image owers name...

Doing a quick Mr Google


Which is how I came across the image and link.

The image was never on my website and still isn't...? If I took a photo would I have use one these websites like flickr and or Imgur which to be honest I been in trouble be for uploading my own image on other websites... and then had to prove I took it which is impossible ...

Any way I am sure I will make the mistake again. so I just get banned... and what ever

I saw the original on NZDF Instagram account a couple of days ago...

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

I saw the original on NZDF Instagram account a couple of days ago...

Didn't even know they were on instagram... lol

 

[ngatimozart]

Well since I have no idea who owns this image, or who uploaded it IMGUR... I have never used IMGUR before and couldn't see any names/usernames saying uploaded by... I have no idea if s/he is the person who took the photo or not? On other posts there is usernames at least... best delete it then... or the best I can do is say Barry in Canada took the photo???

I don't know if there is another version of it where the I cite the image owers name...

Doing a quick Mr Google


Which is how I came across the image and link.

The image was never on my website and still isn't...? If I took a photo would I have use one these websites like flickr and or Imgur which to be honest I been in trouble be for uploading my own image on other websites... and then had to prove I took it which is impossible ...

Any way I am sure I will make the mistake again. so I just get banned... and what ever

All we are trying to do is to prevent both you and us from being accused of plagiarism. Rule #14 applies.

 

[Donnzy]

NZF still touting northland for a replacement naval base for devonport

No new drydock for Northland soon but decision on Devonport naval base closer - its a "premium link"

Spoiler: for those who dont have subscription

No new drydock for Northland soon but decision on Devonport naval base closer


A new floating drydock and shipyard for Northland has been dumped as a shovel-ready contender after the likely cost topped $210 million.

The news comes as the NZ Defence Force, which owns the existing drydock at Devonport alongside the naval base, said it expected to complete an "indicative" business case by the end of this year on the future location of the base. Northland and its port at Marsden Point, Whangarei is also a contender for the new navy base.

Infrastructure and regional economic development minister Shane Jones said the drydock proposal costs rose steadily during a feasibility study by Northport, and the project didn't make the cut with the Infrastructure Reference Group, which decides the shovel-ready programme.

Northport received nearly $1m last year from the Provincial Growth Fund to do the study, said Jones, who is seeking election as an NZ First MP in Northland.


Jones has long championed Northland as the new location for a big drydock to service ships because the Defence-owned drydock at Devonport is considered no longer fit for purpose.

Defence has confirmed the dry dock cannot service naval vessel the HMNZS Canterbury or the new KiwiRail ferries. It will not be able to service the new ship the HMNZS Aotearoa.

The facility has been leased to Babcock Australasia, part of the global aerospace and defence company Babcock, or its legacy companies, since 1994.

An initial report released to the Herald by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment said a conceptual design for the proposed shipyard and floating drydock had been undertaken, the construction method investigated and a cost estimate produce.



All dollar and dimension figures and commercial details are redacted.

But the Herald understands the cost estimate was more than $210 million while Jones believed it was closer to $250m.

"It's a huge amount of money but the infrastructure would create huge value and be a leading global facility," he said.

"There's a desire for stakeholders in Picton to locate it at the top of the South Island but officials told us the best option was Whangarei."

The concept of a New Zealand-owned and operated floating drydock at Whangarei's port in Northland was mooted many years ago by the NZ Shipping Federation and KiwiRail, said the report. Options were explored but no further work done.

"The concept was discussed with Northport directors and it was agreed Northport should provide as much assistance to this project as possible; a stakeholder workshop was held at Northport in May 2018 to explore options and determine the best location for the proposed facility," it said.

"The preferred concept and alternatives were provided to (redacted) and NZ Defence Force for discussion and input; it was agreed the development proposed at the western end of the port facility would meet all the operational and infrastructure requirements."

The report said Northport and (redacted but most likely Babcock) entered into a heads of agreement in July 2018 to explore requirements for a shipyard facility and floating drydock at Northport.



Northport's feasibility work included investigating future navy ship requirements and dimensions and future commercial shipping needs.

Northport is a deepwater commercial port at Marsden Point near Whangarei. It is 50 per cent owned by the listed Port of Tauranga, and 50 per cent by listed Marsden Maritime. The Ports of Auckland has a nearly 20 per cent stake in Marsden Maritime, which is majority-owned by the Northland Regional Council.

On the naval base's future, a Defence spokesperson said Cabinet last year directed the department to review its real estate, including identifying potential options for the future location of the naval base.

The total Devonport Naval Base is 22 hectares and has a land value of $134.7 million, said CoreLogic. The dry dock is about one third of the total area.

There had been "numerous" reviews of navy base locations, the spokesperson said.

Asked by the Herald about constraints on navy operations at Devonport and when those constraints would become unsustainable, the spokesperson said the implications of sea-level rise were having an impact now on Ngataringa Bay.

"But it is still many years off before operations at the base become unsustainable. Any decision on the location of the naval base would be made by the Government, not the Defence Force."

Any relocation of the naval base would not go hand in hand with relocation of the drydock at Devonport.

The dry dock, the official name of which is the Calliope Graving Dock, named for its location at the foot of Calliope Point, was the largest dock in the Southern Hemisphere when it opened in 1888.

Defence records say the Navy purchased it in 1986. The last modifications to the facility were in 1996 to accommodate ANZAC-class frigates.

 

[ngatimozart]

NZF still touting northland for a replacement naval base for devonport

No new drydock for Northland soon but decision on Devonport naval base closer - its a "premium link"

Doesn't really surprise me in the slightest, unfortunately because I think a lot of politics is being played in this case. Regardless of who is pushing the idea of the drydock in Whangarei, I have been of the opinion that it's the best place for it and it's an absolute necessity for NZ Inc, both from a commercial perspective and from a defence perspective. I would even categorise it as a national strategic asset.

 

[KiwiRob]

Doesn't really surprise me in the slightest, unfortunately because I think a lot of politics is being played in this case. Regardless of who is pushing the idea of the drydock in Whangarei, I have been of the opinion that it's the best place for it and it's an absolute necessity for NZ Inc, both from a commercial perspective and from a defence perspective. I would even categorise it as a national strategic asset.

It should be a proper drydock, ie a big hole in the ground, a floating dock is a very easy asset to sell off, as has happened in the past in NZ.

Whatever is built should be big enough for the new Cook Strait ferries.

 

[milliGal]

Was browsing through the spring issue of Line of Defence recently, and came across an interesting piece by Dr. Peter Greener on the maritime helicopter replacement project.

He expects the project to begin progressing under the next government and discusses the available options. Much of what he discusses has been brought up on here already, but he notes that both the NH90 NFH and MH60R have their shortcomings and appears to favour the AW159 Wildcat.

 

[ASSAIL]

Was browsing through the spring issue of Line of Defence recently, and came across an interesting piece by Dr. Peter Greener on the maritime helicopter replacement project.

He expects the project to begin progressing under the next government and discusses the available options. Much of what he discusses has been brought up on here already, but he notes that both the NH90 NFH and MH60R have their shortcomings and appears to favour the AW159 Wildcat.

I thought the article totally superficial.
It took no account of possible weapon/sensor integration issues, it showed a pic of an AW101 and labelled it an MH60R and it simply seemed an excuse to plug the AW159 Wildcat.

 

[At lakes]

It took no account of possible weapon/sensor integration issues, it showed a pic of an AW101 and labelled it an MH60R and simply seemed an excuse to plug the AW159 Wildcat.

I agree, I seriously doubt if the Wildcat will still be production by the time it comes to signing on the dotted line for 9 examples. Its not as if they are swamped with orders.

 

[ngatimozart]

@ASSAIL I agree. I read it on Wednesday and thought it a waste of time. I don't agree about the Wildcat and in the NZ context the Wildcat would not be the least riskest acquisition. It's not flown by many navies and from I have heard doesn't have the best reputation, certainly nowhere near its predecessor, the Lynx. Personally I wouldn't touch the Wildcat.

 

[CJohn]

It will be interesting to see which option the ROK navy selects for 12 anti-submarine warfare (ASW) helicopters under its Maritime Operations Helicopter competition. The AW159, MH60R and the NH90 NFH will all be competing I would think.