Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Lucasnz]

On an unrelated Navy topic I see the RNZN is finally starting to get serious about the MCM role...

http://www.hydroidinc.com/pr_0806_RNZN.html

The beauty of the thing is it could be deployed on any of the fleet's vessels, although I guess HMNZS Manawanui & Resolution may do the lion's share of this work. I understand Manawanui is possibly getting / trialling a new sonar which one hopes is optimised for the MCM role - anyone heard about this!?!

I guess there's still a need for AUV for clearance tasks (laying charges etc).

About time, and I hope the sonar story is true. There was nothing worse than going out to route survey and then finding the equipment didn't work and that the only other source of spares was of another IPC. I hope they think the logistics through this time.

 

[Stuart Mackey]

I couldn't agree more. There is nothing wrong with what has been purchased, it is just what hasn't.

Accepting what has already been done with the RNZN, what do you see as being needed in addition?

Pair of LPD's {with appropriate CIWS} with a minimum requirement to move a full battlion group {more if possible for major civil defence issues, for example moving both Log battalions to a disaster zone with all their gear}.

An additional pair of frigates armed to survive medium to high intensity warfare {2 mk 41 launchers?}, and the ANZAC's suitably upgraded.

At least three minewarfare vessels, preferably four.

I would also throw in an additional OPV, two is not enough as they get older, imo.

Not nessarily in this order, we all know what politicians are like

 

[Sea Toby]

Stuart, you just spent close to 3 billion NZ dollars for two frigates, two upgraded frigates, 1 OPV, 4 minesweepers, and 2 large LPDs. You also added over 700 sailors to the payroll. The ten year LTDP was for 3.3 billion NZ dollars for all three services. Why not add a couple of diesel submarines?

At best in the next ten year LTDP the RNZN should expect $1 billion, not $3 billion.

A comparable sized European nation with a similar population is Ireland. New Zealand's navy is an armed fortress compared to Ireland's navy.

 

[contedicavour]

Pair of LPD's {with appropriate CIWS} with a minimum requirement to move a full battlion group {more if possible for major civil defence issues, for example moving both Log battalions to a disaster zone with all their gear}.

An additional pair of frigates armed to survive medium to high intensity warfare {2 mk 41 launchers?}, and the ANZAC's suitably upgraded.

At least three minewarfare vessels, preferably four.

I would also throw in an additional OPV, two is not enough as they get older, imo.

Not nessarily in this order, we all know what politicians are like

Ah interesting to read. A couple of days ago you were screaming against such wish lists. You were insisting any such wish lists would help politicians reduce defence spending. Last but not least, you insisted on having sound reasons to justify every single line of spending.
Now I see you are requesting material worth several times what I was requesting before, and without justifying the logic of the spending

I won't repeat what Sea Toby has written in terms of evaluation of the costs of such a wish list.

My wish list was much more moderate : add Harpoons to the 2 Anzacs, install 57mm or 76mm on the OPVs, modernize P3Cs with Harpoons, and if some money is left, then build a 3rd Anzac, and reactivate a combat air force with 8-10 second hand leased US ANG F-16A/B with Amraam and Maverick (with a leasing scheme for a ?? n° of flight hours, leaving maintenance to the US).

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Stuart, you just spent close to 3 billion NZ dollars for two frigates, two upgraded frigates, 1 OPV, 4 minesweepers, and 2 large LPDs. You also added over 700 sailors to the payroll. The ten year LTDP was for 3.3 billion NZ dollars for all three services. Why not add a couple of diesel submarines?

At best in the next ten year LTDP the RNZN should expect $1 billion, not $3 billion.

A comparable sized European nation with a similar population is Ireland. New Zealand's navy is an armed fortress compared to Ireland's navy.

Your comparison is correct. Though you could select similar-size countries (population, GDP, etc) with a less "neutral at all costs" position. For example, Finland and Denmark have the same PPP GDP in dollars (source : eurostat) as Ireland. Denmark already has a powerful navy and air force, and with the new Absalon and AAW FFGs and F-35s it will be a superpower compared to what NZ has or will have. Finland has a small yet heavily armed navy with 8+ FAC(M)s with SSM and SAM, not to mention its air force with F-18s.

cheers

 

[Whiskyjack]

Pair of LPD's {with appropriate CIWS} with a minimum requirement to move a full battlion group {more if possible for major civil defence issues, for example moving both Log battalions to a disaster zone with all their gear}.

An additional pair of frigates armed to survive medium to high intensity warfare {2 mk 41 launchers?}, and the ANZAC's suitably upgraded.

At least three minewarfare vessels, preferably four.

I would also throw in an additional OPV, two is not enough as they get older, imo.

Not nessarily in this order, we all know what politicians are like

I agree with the first, price I think is going to be $750m-$1b, with a combined crew of 180-240. If the MRV is kept then halve the above figure.

I think a pair of frigates will be a big ask, I think one is also, but I am thinking a budget of $1.25b will get one extra and the 2 Anzacs upgraded. an extra 170 crew.

Agree with MCM, but have no idea as to costs. Also OPV is a good idea as well.

It needs to be funded over a decade minimum, and recruitment is also going to be an issue

 

[Grand Danois]

Your comparison is correct. Though you could select similar-size countries (population, GDP, etc) with a less "neutral at all costs" position. For example, Finland and Denmark have the same PPP GDP in dollars (source : eurostat) as Ireland. Denmark already has a powerful navy and air force, and with the new Absalon and AAW FFGs and F-35s it will be a superpower compared to what NZ has or will have. Finland has a small yet heavily armed navy with 8+ FAC(M)s with SSM and SAM, not to mention its air force with F-18s.

cheers

For Western economies nominal GDP is far more accurate, especially when platforms have a high imported content. PPP affects measurement of developing economies the most.

According to the IMF, nominal GDP of the mentioned countries in 2005 are:

• Denmark 259,746 million USD
  
  
• New Zealand 108,547 million USD
  
  
• Republic of Ireland 199,722 million USD

So NZ doesn't have all that much money for procurement at all, compared to the other, even if the defence spending as percentage of GDP was raised. Especially imported systems hurt as they are not affected by a GDP PPP advantage.

 

[contedicavour]

For Western economies nominal GDP is far more accurate, especially when platforms have a high imported content. PPP affects measurement of developing economies the most.

According to the IMF, nominal GDP of the mentioned countries in 2005 are:

• Denmark 259,746 million USD
  
  
• New Zealand 108,547 million USD
  
  
• Republic of Ireland 199,722 million USD

So NZ doesn't have all that much money for procurement at all, compared to the other, even if the defence spending as percentage of GDP was raised. Especially imported systems hurt as they are not affected by a GDP PPP advantage.

You are right, but given the huge volatility the kiwi dollar has had in the last decades, I was trying to find a measure that could be comparable whatever the exchange rate of any given moment.
Hence GDP at purchasing power parity.
Buy ships & planes when the NZ dollar is at its highest vs the US dollar, and you can save 30-35% then if you buy a few years later, so strong is the volatility of the exchange rate.

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Its my opinion the best New Zealand navy's can hope to acquire in the next decade is another frigate to bring the fleet up to three, a replenishment oiler to replace Endeavour, a diving tender to replace Manawanui, a couple of British Sandown minehunters, and adding Harpoon missiles to the fleet. This assumes that the Anzac class upgrade adding ESSM is funded in the current decade. Keep in mind there are some items on the current LTDP that will most likely slide over to the next decade's LTDP. I can't see much more in the next decade, the frigate itself will consume half of the spending funds. Its my opinion the above will cost around one billion New Zealand dollars.

The Anzac class frigates replacement will consume the next ten year LDTP as far as the navy is concerned. More than likely these will cost much more than one billion New Zealand dollars.

 

[contedicavour]

Its my opinion the best New Zealand navy's can hope to acquire in the next decade is another frigate to bring the fleet up to three, a replenishment oiler to replace Endeavour, a diving tender to replace Manawanui, a couple of British Sandown minehunters, and adding Harpoon missiles to the fleet. This assumes that the Anzac class upgrade adding ESSM is funded in the current decade. Keep in mind there are some items on the current LTDP that will most likely slide over to the next decade's LTDP. I can't see much more in the next decade, the frigate itself will consume half of the spending funds. Its my opinion the above will cost around one billion New Zealand dollars.

The Anzac class frigates replacement will consume the next ten year LDTP as far as the navy is concerned. More than likely these will cost much more than one billion New Zealand dollars.

Well it's not bad after all if all you mention becomes reality
Real ASUW capability and a 3rd frigate plus a couple of MCM ships. Great !
Question is : would the air force have the money to upgrade P3Cs (who honestly should belong to the Navy ...) ?

cheers

 

[Sea Toby]

Per the LTDP, the Orions and Hercules are getting their cockpits upgraded. The Orions have already been rewinged, the Hercules are getting theirs now. These upgrades have already been funded.

Per the LTDP both aircraft are to receive funding for upgraded self defence, and the Orions may receive the Harpoons. But these have not been funded yet.

Since none of these programs are budget breakers, I see no reason why the Orions and Hercules won't receive their entire upgrades. The Harpoons for the Orions and Anzacs may be delayed into the next decade though, it is in a lesser needs category.

The most expensive unfunded program with the LTDP is the Anzac class upgrades of over $300 million NZ. Every other programs on the list are considerably cheaper.

Keep in mind my wish list of my previous post is not confirmed. Actually I don't think this government will go as far as I went. But another government may.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Per the LTDP, the Orions and Hercules are getting their cockpits upgraded. The Orions have already been rewinged, the Hercules are getting theirs now. These upgrades have already been funded.

Per the LTDP both aircraft are to receive funding for upgraded self defence, and the Orions may receive the Harpoons. But these have not been funded yet.

Since none of these programs are budget breakers, I see no reason why the Orions and Hercules won't receive their entire upgrades. The Harpoons for the Orions and Anzacs may be delayed into the next decade though, it is in a lesser needs category.

The most expensive unfunded program with the LTDP is the Anzac class upgrades of over $300 million NZ. Every other programs on the list are considerably cheaper.

Keep in mind my wish list of my previous post is not confirmed. Actually I don't think this government will go as far as I went. But another government may.

I agree, the only comment I would make is that any missile for the P-3s may well be a mav, etc..

Agree regarding the frigate as well, it is affordable but in NZ Frigate is a dirty word!

 

[KH-12]

Per the LTDP, the Orions and Hercules are getting their cockpits upgraded. The Orions have already been rewinged, the Hercules are getting theirs now. These upgrades have already been funded.

Per the LTDP both aircraft are to receive funding for upgraded self defence, and the Orions may receive the Harpoons. But these have not been funded yet.

Since none of these programs are budget breakers, I see no reason why the Orions and Hercules won't receive their entire upgrades. The Harpoons for the Orions and Anzacs may be delayed into the next decade though, it is in a lesser needs category.

The most expensive unfunded program with the LTDP is the Anzac class upgrades of over $300 million NZ. Every other programs on the list are considerably cheaper.

Keep in mind my wish list of my previous post is not confirmed. Actually I don't think this government will go as far as I went. But another government may.

The C-130 and P3 upgrades being carried out by L3 are more than just a cockpit upgrade , the C-130's are being totally stripped, rewired , new aircon, cockpit avionics etc which should improve their reliability substantially. The P3' s are getting similar treatment plus new radars, FLIR and processing systems, the ASW aspect is the bit that is missing and unlikely ever to get funding. I would'nt have thought the ASM implementation would be that expensive, the cost of the missles might be (Harpoon)

 

[Lucasnz]

I agree, the only comment I would make is that any missile for the P-3s may well be a mav, etc..

Agree regarding the frigate as well, it is affordable but in NZ Frigate is a dirty word!

The Maverick has a place on the SH-2G / P-3 as a limited range stand off interdication weapon. I think the military could convince even Labour that it would be a stupid idea to use it in the Anti Shipping role.

There was talk when the A-4's were around of using a long range version of the Maverick, maybe thats a more viable option. I can't remember the name it was given Long - ? I think.

Converting to Pengiun would be a better option given it has a longer range and could be fitted to both the P-3 / SH-2G, reducing logisitics and training costs.

If frigate is a dirty word - how about "large corvette" - you can't tell the difference somedays.

 

[KH-12]

Does anyone know whether it is planned to deploy the SeaSprites as standard practice on the new OPV's (as per the ANZACs) or will it be determined on a patrol by patrol basis. Is it possible that the selected LUH may play a role in supplementing the Seasprite fleet (for the OPV's) once we have 5 Helicopter capable vessels and 6 Sqn only having a requirement for 3 operational aircraft available for deployment.

 

[Sea Toby]

If New Zealand can only keep 3 of its 5 SeaSprites available for operations, do you really think New Zealand can keep more than 3 of its 5 helicopter equipped ships available for operation? 5 helicopters for 5 ships. Its very simple. Keep in mind the military always cycle their deployments. Notice that while one Anzac returned from a long deployment recently, the other Anzac started one.

I can't imagine any SERIOUS defence review would suggest New Zealand not have any frigates. ANY such review would be politically biased, certainly New Zealand is a maritime nation. Period. Frigates a dirty word? How about an Australian naval blockade of New Zealand until its government changed its mind?

I don't think so, not with a Dutch Uncle Aussie looking over his Kiwi nephew's shoulder! Please notice the defence ministers press release of their last meeting. NH90s and Anzac class upgrades were in the first sentence, if not paragraph.

 

[KH-12]

If New Zealand can only keep 3 of its 5 SeaSprites available for operations, do you really think New Zealand can keep more than 3 of its 5 helicopter equipped ships available for operation? 5 helicopters for 5 ships. Its very simple. Keep in mind the military always cycle their deployments. Notice that while one Anzac returned from a long deployment recently, the other Anzac started one.

I can't imagine any SERIOUS defence review would suggest New Zealand not have any frigates. ANY such review would be politically biased, certainly New Zealand is a maritime nation. Period. Frigates a dirty word? How about an Australian naval blockade of New Zealand until its government changed its mind?

I don't think so, not with a Dutch Uncle Aussie looking over his Kiwi nephew's shoulder! Please notice the defence ministers press release of their last meeting. NH90s and Anzac class upgrades were in the first sentence, if not paragraph.

It is likely the OPV deployments will be much shorter in nature than the Frigate operations and I can imagine both being at sea at the same time especially if they run 3 crews for 2 ships. The Frigates have generally had long deployments and longer periods back in home port, but there have been times when both have been at sea so although it certainly wont be the norm I could see the odd occasion when the full fleet was at sea or at least 4 out of 5.

 

[Sea Toby]

As I recall the maritime review, New Zealand is funding 400 patrol days from these ships, about 150 each for the OPVs and 100 for the MRV. There will be no multi-crew for the OPVs and MRV. Therefore, like the frigates, it appears the OPVs will be deploying in cycles.

On the other hand the IPVs will be multi-crewed, 6 crews for 4 patrol boats. The patrol boats do not have a helicopter deck or hangar.

So for two-thirds of a year, one Seasprite from the MRV should be land based. For half a year, two more Seasprites should be land based. Since there are only 5 helicopters, how many does a nation need to be land based for pilot training? You would think one would be enough for 5 helicopters.

However, I will admit in emergencies all, if not most, of the Seasprites may be deployed. During emergencies I doubt whether its in New Zealand's best interests to be training pilots.

 

[KH-12]

I just think there may be the odd occasion where having a good LUH available would be a useful backup to the SeaSprite, you only have to have one go down damaged for an extended period (which has happened) to come up short.

The funded operational days by vessel type are detailed in this document :

http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/public-documents/statement-of-intent.htm

 

[Stuart Mackey]

Stuart, you just spent close to 3 billion NZ dollars for two frigates, two upgraded frigates, 1 OPV, 4 minesweepers, and 2 large LPDs. You also added over 700 sailors to the payroll. The ten year LTDP was for 3.3 billion NZ dollars for all three services. Why not add a couple of diesel submarines?

snip

Hey, I was asked what I thought was needed in addition to PP, not how much should be spent