Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[tongan_yam]

I very much appreciated Shane Jones's take on things over this issue today. Iwi when it comes down to it will do very well out of a growing NZ Oil and Gas industry - that also includes jobs. In Taranaki for every job directly employed in the O&G industry 3.7 jobs are created.

I was at a investment symposium in Maryland a few years ago where I met a Texas wildcatter and US oil and resource broker over dinner. The broker was well versed in our geology having been on a number of deals in the Taranaki basin.

Since we're in the pun frame of mind - he was gushing about our geology to the wildcatter, even pushing that the Texan move out to set up shop. Talk then turned to the iwi and the broker then shared his take on it as it wasn't the first country where well meaning 'folk' wanted to put the brakes on the development of natural resource. It was all in the name of the environment that these good folk would keep the iwi poor and uneducated about the wealth that was below them.

Well it didn't take long for the iwi to get the idea that they again we're having the wool pulled over their eyes - just remember the couple of muskets and a set of blankets:rolling

Lets say his take on things won him friends with the iwi and capitalism won.

I've always maintain that once the resources start to flow then we will need to redress our defence needs - one thing to the list ngatimozart would be a fleet of three 1800-2000T AIP submarines (i.e. Type U214). as our oil deposits in the Southern Basin will require off shore deep wells that need protecting.

 

[Adzze]

[...]

I've always maintain that once the resources start to flow then we will need to redress our defence needs - one thing to the list ngatimozart would be a fleet of three 1800-2000T AIP submarines (i.e. Type U214). as our oil deposits in the Southern Basin will require off shore deep wells that need protecting.

I wouldn't like to comment on our chances on getting subs of any type, but this reminded me of an off-hand remark I heard on RadioNZ the other day. A strategic defence analyst was being interviewed on the topic of the recent joint Aus/NZ cabinet discussions in Canberra, and at the end the interviewer made a glib remark about buying submarines. The analyst replied that "we had looked into getting submarines in 1983, but I doubt we'd consider that again". Does anyone know how seriously "we" had considered that back then? A cursory Google left me none the wiser.

 

[ngatimozart]

I wouldn't like to comment on our chances on getting subs of any type, but this reminded me of an off-hand remark I heard on RadioNZ the other day. A strategic defence analyst was being interviewed on the topic of the recent joint Aus/NZ cabinet discussions in Canberra, and at the end the interviewer made a glib remark about buying submarines. The analyst replied that "we had looked into getting submarines in 1983, but I doubt we'd consider that again". Does anyone know how seriously "we" had considered that back then? A cursory Google left me none the wiser.

That was about the time the NZG in the form of the little corporal were looking down the barrel of having to replace the frigates. IIRC The Otago and Taranaki had been paid off because they were well past their useby date. Muldoon wouldn't authorise two new frigates (we didn't know it at the time but the country was very broke then & the financial figures were a state secret) and a discussion was had with one idea of the RNZN forgoing frigates and going into subs instead. But that was to expensive and subs would not meet all of the requirements that the RNZN needed and that frigates could provide. So instead we got two second hand well used Leander class frigates from the RN. HMNZS Southland F104 (HMS Dido) and HMNZS Wellington F69 (HMS Bacchante). When we were alongside at Nelson in 91 the Southland was berthed at the next wharf. A young ordinary seaman had been detailed off to scrape the rust off the inside of the hull below the waterline and he put the wire brush trough the side. We reckoned it had more rust than steel in it and more concrete than Lancaster Park.

 

[ngatimozart]

I was at a investment symposium in Maryland a few years ago where I met a Texas wildcatter and US oil and resource broker over dinner. The broker was well versed in our geology having been on a number of deals in the Taranaki basin.

Since we're in the pun frame of mind - he was gushing about our geology to the wildcatter, even pushing that the Texan move out to set up shop. Talk then turned to the iwi and the broker then shared his take on it as it wasn't the first country where well meaning 'folk' wanted to put the brakes on the development of natural resource. It was all in the name of the environment that these good folk would keep the iwi poor and uneducated about the wealth that was below them.

Well it didn't take long for the iwi to get the idea that they again we're having the wool pulled over their eyes - just remember the couple of muskets and a set of blankets:rolling

Lets say his take on things won him friends with the iwi and capitalism won.

I strongly believe that digging and drilling is going to win at the end of the day. We just have to get the royalties right. Iwi will come onboard and you will always have people against it but the iwi leaders will see the potential wealth to be gained. Immense wealth. Māori have always traded and that isn't going to stop. My only concern apart from the royalties is the environmental side and my belief that very large cash bonds have to be paid up front by the oil companies to ensure compliance, say in the region of US500 million per offshore platform. So I went and upset some of the cuzzie bros earlier and ended leaving a comment on Annette Sykes facebook page saying that we needed to dig and drill. Will go have a look tomorrow. Should be quite entertaining.

I've always maintain that once the resources start to flow then we will need to redress our defence needs - one thing to the list ngatimozart would be a fleet of three 1800-2000T AIP submarines (i.e. Type U214). as our oil deposits in the Southern Basin will require off shore deep wells that need protecting.

No I disagree. OPVs would be ideal for that. We just need to find a helo that would be good for operating off the OPVs and will fit in the hanger and is not a Seasprite. MH60 Romeos are to big. You have to be able to hangar the helo if you are operationg in the Southern Ocean. Don't forget you will also have light maritime EEZ patrol aircraft as well as P3K2 /P8s plus possibility of maritime UAVs operating off OPVs and frigates. Subs would be a financial and sustainment liability we don't need.

 

[MrConservative]

The analyst replied that "we had looked into getting submarines in 1983, but I doubt we'd consider that again". Does anyone know how seriously "we" had considered that back then? A cursory Google left me none the wiser.

The RNZN submarine idea first surfaced around the time of the 1983 DWP was still being pushed as late as 1985 as an alternative to the then upcoming ANZAC's - what killed it was that to build the four subs they believe they'd need was reputed to cost around NZ$2billion at the time in 1985 dollars and take 20 years to achieve credible combat capability. So that pretty much killed it forever.

For those history buffs - the NZ Naval Board was offered an ex RN Majestic Class in the late 1940's but passing on it and taking up a couple of Light Cruisers instead. However by the late 1950's the Cruiser idea was canned and a frigate Navy was the way to go. VADM Phipps who was our first real CDS in the early 60's was very much to the fore getting us the new frigate fleet. All the Navy brass at the time believed that a six ship fleet was required. It ended up being four by the time the Canterbury was delivered in 1971.

As an aside whilst I am wandering down history lane is that back in the early 1960's the then Service Chiefs were very much big cheeses. Gen Thornton the then CGS was a Brigadier when the "little Corporal was serving in Italy." VADM Phipps was a Naval war hero, AVM Morison an impressive Squadron commander in the Pacific and the special military advisor to Cabinet - Gen Steve Weir lead both NZ2 Division and UK46 Division towards the later stages of the War - these guys had huge amounts of mana with the public and particularly with politicians. Practically everyone who sat around the Cabinet table then - which included two former Territorial Army Brigadiers (McIntyre and Thompson) had at some stage served under these Chiefs. Sort of explains why the 1960's were a time when the military was in a lot healthier shape at least in terms of kit.

 

[ngatimozart]

I very much appreciated Shane Jones's take on things over this issue today. Iwi when it comes down to it will do very well out of a growing NZ Oil and Gas industry - that also includes jobs. In Taranaki for every job directly employed in the O&G industry 3.7 jobs are created.

Mr C where was Shane Jones commenting? Were they published in written form, audio, or video? I am quite interested. Thanks.
NM.

 

[swerve]

...OPVs would be ideal for that. We just need to find a helo that would be good for operating off the OPVs and will fit in the hanger and is not a Seasprite. MH60 Romeos are to big. You have to be able to hangar the helo if you are operationg in the Southern Ocean. ...

AW159 Wildcar? AS565 Panther?

 

[ngatimozart]

AW159 Wildcar? AS565 Panther?

Wildcat is an unproven animal and overkill anyway. We've been stung with the Seasprite as the launch export customer and we have ended up with an expensive orphan and very poor service from Kaman. We had thought of a marinised variant of the A109 because we don't want to may differing types. But as has been pointed out that could be an expensive option. Of course another option is the marine version of the NH90 for the frigates, Canterbury and Endeavour replacement and a smaller type for OPVs such as the Panther without all the gee whiz gear.

 

[recce.k1]

Wildcat is an unproven animal and overkill anyway. We've been stung with the Seasprite as the launch export customer and we have ended up with an expensive orphan and very poor service from Kaman. We had thought of a marinised variant of the A109 because we don't want to may differing types. But as has been pointed out that could be an expensive option. Of course another option is the marine version of the NH90 for the frigates, Canterbury and Endeavour replacement and a smaller type for OPVs such as the Panther without all the gee whiz gear.

Although don't forget the hangers on the OPV's and Canty are the same size as the ANZAC Frigates', hence the OPV helo doesn't necessarily have to be smaller.

In terms of helo types, presumably the helo needs/roles for Canterbury and Endeavour replacement would be primarily be replenishment, troop/personnel ship to shore and SAR etc, meaning nothing too sophisticated apart from being maranised and hopefully some form of search radar (as well as being "proven" and having known operating costs etc). Armament would only need to be door mounted MG's when required (in the Gulf etc). Perhaps the NH90 family fits the bill at one end of the spectrum, to something else smaller at the other end?

The Frigate helo needs/roles would of course be much different and at the higher end, also most likely with the need to process complex data in a networked environment (with other sea and air assets etc), meaning perhaps something like the suggestions here of a type that has commonality with the RAN.

The OPV's though, in most cases may need something similar to the Canty/Endeavour for most of her EEZ patrolling and whole-of-govt needs/roles. But perhaps there could be times where something a bit more sophisticated is needed when undertaking joint operations with the Army or anti-piracy or non-proliferation tasks etc. I can't really see the Govt favouring another (in-between) helo type for a couple of OPV's so perhaps what will happen post 2015 is that the OPV's will embark either NH90 or whatever the Frigates get depending on the tasking. If the latter then NZDF may need an extra high end helo or so (bearing in mind not all Frigates/OPV's tend to go to sea at the same time on operations etc).

 

[Adzze]

Mr C where was Shane Jones commenting? Were they published in written form, audio, or video? I am quite interested. Thanks.
NM.

Mr C hasn't yet replied (thanks for the history on the sub proposal by the way guys) so I will include the link to the Te Manu Korihi bulletin on Radio NZ here:

Radio New Zealand : News : Te Manu Korihi : Fossilised view of Maori and mining - Labour

It's refreshing to see a more 'catholic' approach to mining from an opposition party!

 

[MrConservative]

I wanted to pass a couple a of thoughts about the LUH and the requirement of rotary support for some taskings for Govt Agencies.

The 109LUH has known limitations in terms of its deck handling as its wheeled under carriage is not robust enough for atypical maritime conditions and being configured with non folding blades renders it to be not effectively deployable from an OPV. Added to that - as an airframe it is not specialised for working in the maritime environment other than short periods.

If the Seasprites disappear the options are its replacement ( discussion is indicating the Romeo ) to deploy off OPV's so to carry out relatively mundane MAOT related taskings. Ship to shore resupply of our offshore islands like Raoul or Campbell for the benefit of DOC or the Met Service.

The penny pinching Scottish blood in me starts to get a bit antsy when I think of scarce and costly machines doing this. I would rather a simpler and cheaper solution. For example sourcing and retro fitting a more robust undercarriage which must have been available when Agusta was marketing the 109KN as well as retro fitting the rotor shaft hub assembly so the LUH can take a folding rotor kit. I think it is worth having a bit more of a ponder over.

 

[recce.k1]

I think it is worth having a bit more of a ponder over.

Hmm, yes, worth a ponder indeed.

On the one hand to introduce yet another helo type seems "unlikely" because the Govt haven't appeared to have signalled such a move in their recent defence reviews (nor the previous Labour Govt when the OPV's were acquired) which means very unlikely between now and until the next defence review 2015-ish.

And (as suggested above) would the Govt then buy 3 or so new helo types for a couple of OPV's (although it could include a couple more for the support vessels)?

Meethinks also, NZDF (history) tends to aspire higher and tends to try and make exisiting assets fit into the jigsaw puzzle eg Seasprites for OPV's (and potentially post 2015 maybe these Romeos). It seems NZDF have good reasons for doing this eg they have a smaller personnel and asset pool, so may as well get more bang for buck and spread the experience/costs across a wider range of (non-combatant) assets.

But on the other hand, sophisticated warfighting Romeo types on non-combatant OPV's (and support vessels?) may get the bean counters upset, so perhaps having a ponder about another type may be useful. Where it could be useful and what could make this a much better prospect, is where you mentioned, Mr C, in recent years that the RNZAF perhaps needs something inbetween the AW109 and NH90 for homeland functions (counter terrorism and govt agency support) esp as the AW109's carrying capacity is limited compared to the Huey workhorse. Although as said above, Defence itself may be not keen on another type? Unless it is something that could fit into the exisiting model eg these AW109KN's? (Although personnally, for the OPV's I'd prefer an extra couple of Romeo type airframes - perhaps fitted for and not with, some of the sophisticated kit, if possible, because of personnel training/deployment/logistic efficiencies ... but hey that is an extra cost all the same).

Edit: The answer could be ... follow the ADF's trail (esp as NZG announced recently it will try and align better with AusGov acquistions). What are they proposing for their OCV's (although it's early days to know for sure)? Perhaps NZG will sort this issue out towards/post 2020 when the OCV's have been better defined etc (and make do with a potential NH-90/AW109/Romeo type combo for the OPV's, depending on the tasking required, in the meantime)? That would be typical of a NZG, eh

 

[MrConservative]

Of course Recce there is a fair bit of commonality between the Romeo and the Sierra even though they obviously have different kit for mission specialization. A mixed Romeo / Sierra package - another option to throw liberally on the bonfire of possibilities.

 

[ngatimozart]

Hmm, yes, worth a ponder indeed.

On the one hand to introduce yet another helo type seems "unlikely" because the Govt haven't appeared to have signalled such a move in their recent defence reviews (nor the previous Labour Govt when the OPV's were acquired) which means very unlikely between now and until the next defence review 2015-ish.

And (as suggested above) would the Govt then buy 3 or so new helo types for a couple of OPV's (although it could include a couple more for the support vessels)?

Meethinks also, NZDF (history) tends to aspire higher and tends to try and make exisiting assets fit into the jigsaw puzzle eg Seasprites for OPV's (and potentially post 2015 maybe these Romeos). It seems NZDF have good reasons for doing this eg they have a smaller personnel and asset pool, so may as well get more bang for buck and spread the experience/costs across a wider range of (non-combatant) assets.

But on the other hand, sophisticated warfighting Romeo types on non-combatant OPV's (and support vessels?) may get the bean counters upset, so perhaps having a ponder about another type may be useful. Where it could be useful and what could make this a much better prospect, is where you mentioned, Mr C, in recent years that the RNZAF perhaps needs something inbetween the AW109 and NH90 for homeland functions (counter terrorism and govt agency support) esp as the AW109's carrying capacity is limited compared to the Huey workhorse. Although as said above, Defence itself may be not keen on another type? Unless it is something that could fit into the exisiting model eg these AW109KN's? (Although personnally, for the OPV's I'd prefer an extra couple of Romeo type airframes - perhaps fitted for and not with, some of the sophisticated kit, if possible, because of personnel training/deployment/logistic efficiencies ... but hey that is an extra cost all the same).

Edit: The answer could be ... follow the ADF's trail (esp as NZG announced recently it will try and align better with AusGov acquistions). What are they proposing for their OCV's (although it's early days to know for sure)? Perhaps NZG will sort this issue out towards/post 2020 when the OCV's have been better defined etc (and make do with a potential NH-90/AW109/Romeo type combo for the OPV's, depending on the tasking required, in the meantime)? That would be typical of a NZG, eh

When I emailed the Minister of Defence last week, I did suggest that 2 or 3 Protector Class OPVs be bought for anti -piracy patrols a swell as use around the Pacific plus use in monitoring the offshore oil and gas drilling programs. I suggested a 57mm or 76mm auto gun up for'ard and the 25mm bushmaster be relocated aft. Plus 2 x M2 .50cal mounts and some mounting points for MAG58s and a helo magazine. I said that they would be ideal for anti-piracy ops providing they had a helo onboard. The pre-existing two would have tobe refited to bring them into line with the new ones. Finally I stipulated that they had to keep the ice belt. I suggested that they would take some of the pressure off the ANZAC frigates with regard to piracy patrols. So this is why I have been talking about more helos for the OPVs. Two becoming 4 or 5 makes for more flight decks.

Thats the other we could have them doing; the anti whaling patrol in the Southern Ocean and then the would have to have a helo for greater eyes and ears. At the same time they can take care of the illegal fishing down there. There is also the patrols into the South Pacific which should be done more regularly showing the flag, especially around Fiji.

Waiting for the OCV means nothings going to happen until 2020 at earliest and to be honest two Protector OPVs was not enough vessels when you think about the area we have to cover.

 

[Lucasnz]

When I emailed the Minister of Defence last week, I did suggest that 2 or 3 Protector Class OPVs be bought for anti -piracy patrols a swell as use around the Pacific plus use in monitoring the offshore oil and gas drilling programs. I suggested a 57mm or 76mm auto gun up for'ard and the 25mm bushmaster be relocated aft. Plus 2 x M2 .50cal mounts and some mounting points for MAG58s and a helo magazine. I said that they would be ideal for anti-piracy ops providing they had a helo onboard. The pre-existing two would have tobe refited to bring them into line with the new ones. Finally I stipulated that they had to keep the ice belt. I suggested that they would take some of the pressure off the ANZAC frigates with regard to piracy patrols. So this is why I have been talking about more helos for the OPVs. Two becoming 4 or 5 makes for more flight decks.

Thats the other we could have them doing; the anti whaling patrol in the Southern Ocean and then the would have to have a helo for greater eyes and ears. At the same time they can take care of the illegal fishing down there. There is also the patrols into the South Pacific which should be done more regularly showing the flag, especially around Fiji.

Waiting for the OCV means nothings going to happen until 2020 at earliest and to be honest two Protector OPVs was not enough vessels when you think about the area we have to cover.

I agree waiting for the OCV will not meet the RNZN's needs. I like the upgrade idea and pushed for it in the Defence Review. That said upgrading the armament on the OPV is constained by the weight issues caused by the ice belt. This has required the RNZN to closely watch the weight over the life of the vessels. I agree with earlier comments by Alexsa (5 Days ago) about Centre of Gravity issues in fitting additional weapons.

As I've thought about it I've come to the conclusion that in the context of a small navy, with wide ranging roles and responsbilities of the RNZN the exsiting OPV design doesn't cut the mustard. Primarily due the lack of a larger weapons systems and sensors. My immediate view to acquire a new class of OPV and convert the two existing ones in Littoral Warfare Vessels using modules developed for the Danish Navy and add a removal Decompression Chamber for the divers. The Governments already up for at least $80million (probably more) in replacing Manawanui, so the incremental cost will not be as great for the one vessel, but will be significantly larger once a 2nd vessels factored in.

In making the suggesting I'm mindful of that an additional class of vessel will increase the logistics burden and training costs for the RNZN but with the weight issues I don't see any other choice.

Haven't really thought about the Helicopter issue, but I still have a strong desire to see a Lynx in RNZN colours. Though in the context of who we operate with in the Pacific I don't think it viable option right now.

 

[htbrst]

VIP Barge

There was some excitement this morning in the news media with "Navy ship hits rocks, taking on water" ...while not as bad as initially reported, it was still very embarrassing with the Navy's VIP barge hitting rocks and taking on significant amounts of water.

Inquiry after navy vessel hits rocks - National - NZ Herald News

Navy crash an 'embarrassment' - Govt - National - NZ Herald News

Not much more that you can say really :dbanana- very embarrassing, but I thought I should add it for thread completeness - it will be interesting to see the eventual report into the incident.

 

[icelord]

There was some excitement this morning in the news media with "Navy ship hits rocks, taking on water" ...while not as bad as initially reported, it was still very embarrassing with the Navy's VIP barge hitting rocks and taking on significant amounts of water.

Inquiry after navy vessel hits rocks - National - NZ Herald News

Navy crash an 'embarrassment' - Govt - National - NZ Herald News

Not much more that you can say really :dbanana- very embarrassing, but I thought I should add it for thread completeness - it will be interesting to see the eventual report into the incident.

Im sure the sailors and officers of devonport are devestated their fishing boat has sunk. While over working with RNZN i watched it sail out, spin around the harbour, then drop a line before coming home at 1500...

 

[ngatimozart]

Im sure the sailors and officers of devonport are devestated their fishing boat has sunk. While over working with RNZN i watched it sail out, spin around the harbour, then drop a line before coming home at 1500...

The Minister Of Defence is not impressed at all. He said it is embarrassing and wants a full report. Methinks someones promotion chnaces have just come to a screaming halt, especially as the Minister was having to front up on national TV over it.

 

[mug]

Im sure the sailors and officers of devonport are devestated their fishing boat has sunk. While over working with RNZN i watched it sail out, spin around the harbour, then drop a line before coming home at 1500...

A sarcastic comment, but warranted nonetheless. The VIP barge should not be used for fishing or anything contrary to the intent of what it was given to the RNZN for.

And will this mean that an OOW will now be posted to the barge (if it is salvageable) for these types of deployments?

 

[ngatimozart]

A sarcastic comment, but warranted nonetheless. The VIP barge should not be used for fishing or anything contrary to the intent of what it was given to the RNZN for.

And will this mean that an OOW will now be posted to the barge (if it is salvageable) for these types of deployments?

There's things that happen that shouldn't but they do and as long as they aren't dangerous or criminal then no harms done. There is no need for an officer or NCO to be overly officious. Swings and roundabouts. If it doesn't prejudice the service nor the discipline then you just have to know where to draw the line.

I've served with officers and NCOs who have been overly officious and I did not want to go to sea with them, because nine times out of ten, they did't know their job, nor did I want to go into combat with them because they would've gotten us killed. There are other officers and NCOs whom knew when to turn a blind eye and when to lay down the law. Those I would've gone to sea with anytime, any where and same if I had to go into combat because I trusted their judgement I knew that they knew their job.

If the OOW gets posted to the barge then thats what he / she's paid for and that's why he / she's an officer. If he / she can't take a joke he / she shouldn't joined the navy. As you can probably tell my class prejudices are starting to show and I was on the lower deck, with no intention of being dragged up through the hawse pipe, no matter how many university quals I accumulated.