Royal New Zealand Air Force

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
So just based on delivery dates I still don't see A400 as an option for tactical.
Bear in mind that Airbus are currently implementing their pulse line rate at the Seville FAL. iirc 17 were physically assembled last year thus nearly at a 1.5 a month with an expectation to build up to 2.5 a month once the pulse line rate has bedded down and further orders are taken. Of those A400M deliveries scheduled over the next 4 years some are options that may be exercised such as the RAF (3). Spain and Germany likewise may exercise their build options and on-sell to prospective buyers.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The first aircraft to replace the C130H fleet is due in service by February 2020 with all aircraft due in service by 2024.

Of the expected contenders which suppliers can meet this deadline?

IMHO I don't see the ability of Airbus to meet this timeline due to their existing order book for A400. If they bid C295W they may be able to meet the date. ( I'm not advocating for the type just stating an obvious possibility)

Lockheed would be able to offer Super Hercules by the deadlines.

Embraer would have to bump the Brazilian Air Force to meet the deadlines unless they can ramp up production to two aircraft per month.

I don't see C2 as a Hercules replacement but as a B757 replacement which it will be able to meet delivery timelines based on the current production rate.

So just based on delivery dates I still don't see A400 as an option for tactical.
Embraer have stated that they can suspend Brazilian Air Force orders to meet overseas demands
Giant Brazilian KC-390 in the running to replace NZ's Hercules - Business - NZ Herald News
This article mentions that about 3/4 the way down. plus some other interesting stuff.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Embraer have stated that they can suspend Brazilian Air Force orders to meet overseas demands
Giant Brazilian KC-390 in the running to replace NZ's Hercules - Business - NZ Herald News
This article mentions that about 3/4 the way down. plus some other interesting stuff.
KC390 cargo compartment = just shy of 12m if ramp space not included ('cos surely the ramp has a lower weight bearing capacity & limits capacity to some degree). C130J-30 has same of just over 15m - so the stretched version looks to me to offer a slightly better capacity, especially where load volume trumps load weight....thoughts!?!
 

beagelle

New Member
KC390 cargo compartment = just shy of 12m if ramp space not included ('cos surely the ramp has a lower weight bearing capacity & limits capacity to some degree). C130J-30 has same of just over 15m - so the stretched version looks to me to offer a slightly better capacity, especially where load volume trumps load weight....thoughts!?!
A slightly longer cabin to hold an extra pallet or 2, but still the same size as in height and width. Something we hope they look at seriously for our oversize loads we have now and into the next 40 years.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What I think and has been inferred by others, is that the selection for both the FAMC and the FASC will be looked as an overall package in regard to what is selected. Not only will there be technical synergies, but in my view, more importantly there will need to be operational synergies as well. My own view as said before is that this could be best achieved by a single type for the FAMC, but I think that budget pressure would preclude this option, as any of the cheaper options could not realistically do all the tasks required by the overall tone of the RFI. and the overall budget I don't think will stretch far enough for the necessary unit numbers of more capable units, to enable this to happen.
The FAMC and FASC are not been looked at as an overall package at all. Defence are desirable of synergies where possible, not a necessity. The only reason that the FASC RFI was released at the same time was to allow / encourage respondents to include possible synergies between the two. that is from the preamble to the documents.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The first aircraft to replace the C130H fleet is due in service by February 2020 with all aircraft due in service by 2024.

Of the expected contenders which suppliers can meet this deadline?

IMHO I don't see the ability of Airbus to meet this timeline due to their existing order book for A400. If they bid C295W they may be able to meet the date. ( I'm not advocating for the type just stating an obvious possibility)

Lockheed would be able to offer Super Hercules by the deadlines.

Embraer would have to bump the Brazilian Air Force to meet the deadlines unless they can ramp up production to two aircraft per month.

I don't see C2 as a Hercules replacement but as a B757 replacement which it will be able to meet delivery timelines based on the current production rate.

So just based on delivery dates I still don't see A400 as an option for tactical.
The fat lady hasn't sung yet and all bets are still on. A very important point to remember is that we do not know the budget that has been allocated for the FAMC. We are aware of what the old budget was around, but what is the current one? That is a state secret.
 

beagelle

New Member
The fat lady hasn't sung yet and all bets are still on. A very important point to remember is that we do not know the budget that has been allocated for the FAMC. We are aware of what the old budget was around, but what is the current one? That is a state secret.
Everyone's new friend Mr Trump might know it better than us and want it to be much higher.
Looks like it's just going to be a long year waiting for decisions.
As soon as we hear about an A400 at Woodbourne to check for hangar size then we'll know something's up.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Everyone's new friend Mr Trump might know it better than us and want it to be much higher.
Actually that is an interesting point. As we know Trump is demanding that some nations had better pull their socks up with respect to Defence spending. One on one FTA's for example will likely be more overt in demanding the triangulation of trade, diplomacy and defense on the US end of the bargaining table if the relationship is to get traction with them. We do pretty well with the first two however defence is often a cognitive vacuum in the minds of most NZ politicians, commentators and officials. We need there business more than they need ours and real politik on our end may have to sharpen up - especially when dealing with the kind of principal advisors he has surrounded himself with.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Actually that is an interesting point. As we know Trump is demanding that some nations had better pull their socks up with respect to Defence spending. One on one FTA's for example will likely be more overt in demanding the triangulation of trade, diplomacy and defense on the US end of the bargaining table if the relationship is to get traction with them. We do pretty well with the first two however defence is often a cognitive vacuum in the minds of most NZ politicians, commentators and officials. We need there business more than they need ours and real politik on our end may have to sharpen up - especially when dealing with the kind of principal advisors he has surrounded himself with.
I noticed Bill English said yesterday that he didn't hold out great hope for a NZ US FTA because there are things that the Trump wants regarding America first that we wouldn't agree too. He said that there is talk about maybe looking at a TTP without the US. I also note that the Korea Times said that South Korea is now looking at more bilateral FTAs.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The FAMC and FASC are not been looked at as an overall package at all. Defence are desirable of synergies where possible, not a necessity. The only reason that the FASC RFI was released at the same time was to allow / encourage respondents to include possible synergies between the two. that is from the preamble to the documents.
You are right, did not make my meaning clear, but I think a link due to overall financing is probable and that the Tactical and strategic will be viewed as a package to get the overall result, but not necessarily acquired from the same source.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Everyone's new friend Mr Trump might know it better than us and want it to be much higher.
Looks like it's just going to be a long year waiting for decisions.
As soon as we hear about an A400 at Woodbourne to check for hangar size then we'll know something's up.
Ha, won't fit unless you take the SAFE (Airbus) hangar apart first and rebuild a bigger one. As Ngati said , we don't know what the budget is and they in the past can be stretched when the business case justifies it, that could be the telling point.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
As soon as we hear about an A400 at Woodbourne to check for hangar size then we'll know something's up.
Whenuapei might be closer to the mark as $80m is earmarked from the Defence Estate Regeneration Plan over the next 8 years for the Arch Hangar – Sub-Programme which will include $20m to upgrade the existing arch hangers, $15m for a new Logistics Despatch Warehouse, $10m for a new Base Operations and Fire Rescue Building, another $10m for a Safety and Surface Workshop, and a further $25m on expanded hardstanding.

BTW about $30m will be spent at Ohakea on Taxiways, an Aircraft Safe Arming Area and an Air Terminal Freight Loading Area.
 

beagelle

New Member
10 million for a S&S workshop. After I left in 2002 some of the bays were transferred to Ohakea and the paintshop was only about 5 years old.
Wonder where this will be built etc and what sections will be in it.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Ha, won't fit unless you take the SAFE (Airbus) hangar apart first and rebuild a bigger one. As Ngati said , we don't know what the budget is and they in the past can be stretched when the business case justifies it, that could be the telling point.
Has a running cost analysis been done to compare say C 130 J, KC 390, A400 m? Would be curious to now how much more it would be for fueling ect. per hr
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Has a running cost analysis been done to compare say C 130 J, KC 390, A400 m? Would be curious to now how much more it would be for fueling ect. per hr
They're the kind of details which the evaluation team will either have or be looking for, when the business cases are analysed.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
They're the kind of details which the evaluation team will either have or be looking for, when the business cases are analysed.
the eval team normally draws up various op-perf matrices to compare against baselines - have had to do it a number of times on diff projects I've been a member of the eval teams

you can drown in numbers - and then the vendors get cranky post debrief as they all think that they have superior assessment abilities :)
 

beagelle

New Member
Has a running cost analysis been done to compare say C 130 J, KC 390, A400 m? Would be curious to now how much more it would be for fueling ect. per hr
watched a video with A400 yesterday on you tube and pretty sure the pilot afterwards was saying 7000ib of fuel an hour in cruise but cannot seem to find the video now as I saw quite a few. will continue search.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
watched a video with A400 yesterday on you tube and pretty sure the pilot afterwards was saying 7000ib of fuel an hour in cruise but cannot seem to find the video now as I saw quite a few. will continue search.
That's not the usual type of movies you S&S bods usually watch. Have you lost your crayons or is the bar shut? :D

A couple of videos. The first is on the KC46
Boeing's Hafer on KC-46A Tanker Program, Production, Features & Global Markets and the second on P3 to P8 conversion US Navy Airborne Antisubmarine Warfare; Transition from P-3 to P-8 Patrol Planes
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Read a large article from think defence on A400M as a multi mission replacement aircraft, not just for Hercules, or as refueling capability, but for MPA as well. A lot of video clips on capability and graphs shown too. What would be the opinion of those here on a single option of A400 M to replace Strategic, Tactical and MPA roles?

About 13 aircraft in all, the same number coincidently as what Germany is looking to on sell. A larger purchase would make the overall purchase a lot cheaper,MPA modules or palletised versions were shown as were other solutions for ASW ect with minimal impact on the plane.After all it was pointed out the savings in having a common fleet operational wise.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Read a large article from think defence on A400M as a multi mission replacement aircraft, not just for Hercules, or as refueling capability, but for MPA as well. A lot of video clips on capability and graphs shown too. What would be the opinion of those here on a single option of A400 M to replace Strategic, Tactical and MPA roles?

About 13 aircraft in all, the same number coincidently as what Germany is looking to on sell. A larger purchase would make the overall purchase a lot cheaper,MPA modules or palletised versions were shown as were other solutions for ASW ect with minimal impact on the plane.After all it was pointed out the savings in having a common fleet operational wise.
NO. It is not a viable concept at the moment and would not be accepted as such by the NZG because the criteria state that the platforms offered have to be certified and in service.
 
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