Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[John Newman]

Was listening to a podcast on CGAI the conservative defense critic said that if they get elected they will purchase another Davie AOR and replace the Victoria class he didn't say how many subs would be purchased or what type they would be He also mentioned putting a parlimentary committee in charge of military procurement similar to what Australia and the Americans have it might all be BS to try and get reelected but the conservatives are the only party so far to mention any specifics about national defense

What the??

I've seen this type of comment numerous times in defence articles in Canadian media/articles/comments, etc, over a number of years, but the fact is there is no such thing, does not exist. There really appears to be some confusion amongst our Canuck cousins, yes there are a whole range of parliamentary committees in Australia, both in the House of Reps and the Senate, but they do not set Government policy.

Here's some links regarding Australian parliamentary committees:

Australian Senate committees - Wikipedia

And this:

Australian House of Representatives committees - Wikipedia

I won't go into the details of how the Committees function (have a read of the links), but generally a Committee reviewing a particular subject, produces a report or recommendation (which can be coloured by which party has a majority in the Committee), but it is not binding on the Government of the day.

What Australia does have that Canada doesn't, is a (mostly) bipartisan support for Defence policy by the two major parties that can form Government, LNP (Centre Right) and the ALP (Centre Left), they do criticize each other (when an opportunity arises), but it is usually arguments on the fringe of the decision not a threat to overturn a decision or change direction as happens in Canada (just look at the endless Classic Hornet replacement saga as a perfect example).

Because Defence policy of both sides in Australia is similar, we don't get the same use of Defence as a political football as is the case in Canada, but still at the end of the day it is the Government of the Day that sets its Defence Policy, Budget, etc. When a piece of equipment is announced to be ordered, generally the other side supports that decision, when they win Government, they will usually commission a new/updated Defence White Paper, but they don't do a complete 180 and go in the other direction.

Anyway, good luck for Canada if a joint Parliamentary Defence Committee is set up, but it won't mean anything unless both sides finally come together and have a bipartisan Defence approach.

Cheers,

 

[Redlands18]

Was listening to a podcast on CGAI the conservative defense critic said that if they get elected they will purchase another Davie AOR and replace the Victoria class he didn't say how many subs would be purchased or what type they would be He also mentioned putting a parlimentary committee in charge of military procurement similar to what Australia and the Americans have it might all be BS to try and get reelected but the conservatives are the only party so far to mention any specifics about national defense

All Defence decisions in Australia are made by the Cabinet acting on advice from the National Security Council(which includes the most senior Cabinet Ministers)and includes the Defence Chiefs, Parliament does not come into final decision making.

 

[Long range]

We currently have 6 political parties running in the election so trying to get them to agree on anything related to foreign policy or national defense isn't happening I had no idea how Australia did defense procurement just know it worked better than our system would like to see our Navy get another AOR and a new sub fleet though

 

[oldsig127]

We currently have 6 political parties running in the election so trying to get them to agree on anything related to foreign policy or national defense isn't happening

If we had so few political parties there'd be a lot less danger of getting a hernia picking up the Senate ballot paper for a start.

(facetious mode off)

In fact the ballot papers are sometimes almost 1 metre wide with each party lined up in a separate column. Measured by paper mass, linear dimensions or hot air Australia is a VERY democratic country

We wish our Canuck cousins well but I at least strongly commend avoiding still more committees. There are only so many trees available to print reports.


Shane

 

[John Newman]

We currently have 6 political parties running in the election so trying to get them to agree on anything related to foreign policy or national defense isn't happening I had no idea how Australia did defense procurement just know it worked better than our system would like to see our Navy get another AOR and a new sub fleet though

Mate, we have a long list of political parties that contest elections (both at Federal and State) levels too, but who ends up as the Government in Australia is either the main Centre Right party, the Liberal/National Party Coalition (Liberal in Oz equals Conservative) and on the other side, the main Centre Left party, the Australian Labor Party (and yes Labor, not Labour, is the correct spelling), and of course there are the more extreme Left and more extreme Right parties too.

The bottom line is that we end up with either the LNP or the ALP in Government, and from a bipartisan Defence point of view, that is all that matters (they are like all political parties, they rarely agree on anything else, but Defence is probably the only area they do agree on).

Is Canada any different at the end of the day? Is it either a Centre Right Government or a Centre Left Government that is usually elected? If it is, then it comes down to both of those two to get their $hit together and agree on a bipartisan Defence Policy.

The problem that you Canucks continue to face is that Defence is a political football, one side might say at an election that they are going to replace the existing Submarine fleet, and the other side says no, or one side once it is elected announces new Submarines, but the other side says they will cancel new Submarines.

We don't have that problem, I can't remember the last time that one party said they would procure X capability and the other side cancelled.

Anyway, its not the number of political parties that you should worry about, its about getting the parties that form Government to finally agree to agree.

Not going to hold my breath though!!

Cheers,

 

[t68]

Mate, we have a long list of political parties that contest elections (both at Federal and State) levels too, but who ends up as the Government in Australia is either the main Centre Right party, the Liberal/National Party Coalition (Liberal in Oz equals Conservative) and on the other side, the main Centre Left party, the Australian Labor Party (and yes Labor, not Labour, is the correct spelling), and of course there are the more extreme Left and more extreme Right parties too.

The bottom line is that we end up with either the LNP or the ALP in Government, and from a bipartisan Defence point of view, that is all that matters (they are like all political parties, they rarely agree on anything else, but Defence is probably the only area they do agree on).

Is Canada any different at the end of the day? Is it either a Centre Right Government or a Centre Left Government that is usually elected? If it is, then it comes down to both of those two to get their $hit together and agree on a bipartisan Defence Policy.

The problem that you Canucks continue to face is that Defence is a political football, one side might say at an election that they are going to replace the existing Submarine fleet, and the other side says no, or one side once it is elected announces new Submarines, but the other side says they will cancel new Submarines.

We don't have that problem, I can't remember the last time that one party said they would procure X capability and the other side cancelled.

Anyway, its not the number of political parties that you should worry about, its about getting the parties that form Government to finally agree to agree.

Not going to hold my breath though!!

Cheers,

Only really two incidents come to mind which was when Howard selected F35 and the ALP said the would look into it and Super Hornet was the most logical choice until it received a classified briefing from Defence, and the other that I remember was Liberal were on point we would replace HMAS Melbourne with another carrier and then Hawke got in and said no, but in saying that I think it was more to do with cost than anything else

 

[Calculus]

Interesting video on CH-148 Cyclone (posted here as this is a maritime helicopter):

The video is about a year old but I couldn't find another video with quite this perspective. What's remarkable is how stable it appears in flight, which is presumably the result of the FBW flight control system. You can see that further demonstrated here:

When combined with the upgraded UWW capabilities on the Halifax Class (Nautel, with General Dynamics, to upgrade Halifax-Class Frigate Sonars – Nautel Sonarand Canadian Halifax frigates getting underwater warfare suite upgrades), these will be formidable assets to a task group for anti-submarine screening.

 

[Calculus]

Very interesting video of the first two Arctic and Offshore Patrol Vessel COs (CDR Gleason of HMCS Harry DeWolf and CDR Tessier of HMCS Margaret Brooke) on the CCGS Louis St Laurent during an ice breaking patrol in the Arctic:

The LSTL is 50 years old, but she's exceptionally well maintained, and still going strong. It is a testament to the quality of her construction that she's still in service today.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

The Louis St Laurent is an amazing vessel. Have had the pleasure to work aboard he a number of times when she was here in Halifax. Very well maintained but I think she is the second oldest hull in the fleet. The senior hull being CCGS Hudson, the offshore science vessel known as the Banana Boat because of her amazing sea keeping qualities.

 

[ASSAIL]

Very interesting video of the first two Arctic and Offshore Patrol Vessel COs (CDR Gleason of HMCS Harry DeWolf and CDR Tessier of HMCS Margaret Brooke) on the CCGS Louis St Laurent during an ice breaking patrol in the Arctic:

The LSTL is 50 years old, but she's exceptionally well maintained, and still going strong. It is a testament to the quality of her construction that she's still in service today.

That’s a very challenging environment. Now I know why I like white sand and palm trees so much

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Operations in northern waters are not for the ill prepared. The men and women of the civilian Coast Guard do a magnificent job of promoting sovereignty, providing platforms for research and search and rescue as well as supporting our far flung settlements. Successive governments have failed to ensure a timely replacement of hulls. Now we are about to replace almost two dozen vessels over the next 20 years and we will be in the same problem down the road.

 

[Calculus]

On the same topic, here's one of the best videos I've seen showing how an icebreaker actually breaks ice, by accelerating at slow speed and riding up on the ice sheet, with the weight of the ship doing most of the "breaking" :

 

[ngatimozart]

Operations in northern waters are not for the ill prepared. The men and women of the civilian Coast Guard do a magnificent job of promoting sovereignty, providing platforms for research and search and rescue as well as supporting our far flung settlements. Successive governments have failed to ensure a timely replacement of hulls. Now we are about to replace almost two dozen vessels over the next 20 years and we will be in the same problem down the road.

To bloody cold for me thanks. Looks nice from afar and that's how I prefer it considering that I live in mid latitude climes. @ASSAIL may like the tropical north but then its to hot and full of salties with big teeth that are very partial to eating people. He can keep them nasties.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Ngati your Navy is operating in the deep south ocean and at somepoint in the next decade will be operating much further south with multiple ship classes. I have seen RNZN sailors training here in Halifax at LM maybe others may eventually come back to partake in operations aboard the AOPS on northern taskings in order to get some cold exposure before heading south on board your own vessels.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ngati your Navy is operating in the deep south ocean and at somepoint in the next decade will be operating much further south with multiple ship classes. I have seen RNZN sailors training here in Halifax at LM maybe others may eventually come back to partake in operations aboard the AOPS on northern taskings in order to get some cold exposure before heading south on board your own vessels.

Yep, and rather them than me. I've grown fond of my creature comforts now, like many old salts.

 

[Calculus]

HMCS Regina will participate in RIMPAC 2020 in retro dazzle paint, to commemorate the end of the Battle of the Atlantic 75 years ago: HMCS Regina dons new 'dazzle' paint ahead of RIMPAC 2020 exercise

 

[Long range]

Was reading the latest issue of Canadian defense review earlier today page 78 I believe a LM Canada rep confirmed the CSC will have a 32 cell vls and will use camm for close in air defense On a side note it was a earlier issue of cdr or vanguard that the head of the RCN mentioned that since we are going with the larger main gun on the CSC and it's not able to be a secondary air defense gun like the main gun on the Halifax class is there will be a ciws to back up the camm he didn't mention if it was a phalanx or a millennium

 

[ngatimozart]

Was reading the latest issue of Canadian defense review earlier today page 78 I believe a LM Canada rep confirmed the CSC will have a 32 cell vls and will use camm for close in air defense On a side note it was a earlier issue of cdr or vanguard that the head of the RCN mentioned that since we are going with the larger main gun on the CSC and it's not able to be a secondary air defense gun like the main gun on the Halifax class is there will be a ciws to back up the camm he didn't mention if it was a phalanx or a millennium

@Long range Can you provide a link to the articles please.

 

[Underway]

HMCS Regina will participate in RIMPAC 2020 in retro dazzle paint, to commemorate the end of the Battle of the Atlantic 75 years ago: HMCS Regina dons new 'dazzle' paint ahead of RIMPAC 2020 exercise

Not dazzle. That's an incorrect label. Its "Admiralty Disruptive" which is not designed to have the same effect as dazzle. This one breaks up your silhouette where as dazzle tries to confuse a targeter on which way the ship is heading.

Was reading the latest issue of Canadian defense review earlier today page 78 I believe a LM Canada rep confirmed the CSC will have a 32 cell vls and will use camm for close in air defense On a side note it was a earlier issue of cdr or vanguard that the head of the RCN mentioned that since we are going with the larger main gun on the CSC and it's not able to be a secondary air defense gun like the main gun on the Halifax class is there will be a ciws to back up the camm he didn't mention if it was a phalanx or a millennium

CSC will have a 127mm main gun. It's in the requirements. 32 VLS is also in the requirements, however there is some debate on the midships launchers. I've heard 6 ExLS for CAMM which will provide the Close In Air Defence System (CIADS) hard kill requirements. This is due to CAMM much closer minimum engagement ranges compared to ESSM Bk2. I've also heard 12 ExLS instead....

Friend of mine working in the project actually said the USN Officers on exchange are making fun of us for "overgunning" the frigate as that's their SOP and don't want us to steal it....

@Long range Can you provide a link to the articles please.

Here's the CDR webpage: Home page | Canadian Defence Review Its on pg 78 Volume 25 Issue 5. There is also a video out there somewhere of the ship at CANSEC with LM being interviewed and they mention CAMM and the number of VLS. It's 32 confirmed. Not sure how many strike length but the current thinking is 8 quad packed ESSM Mk2 (32 missiles) with the rest given over to mission specific fits including land attack cruise missiles. Which means 24 strike length at a minimum.

For those of you doing the math that's 24 CAMM, 32 ESSM Mk2 and 24 other missiles (not including any Anti Ship Missiles). Current Frigate carries 16 ESSM.

 

[Long range]

Thanks for putting the link to CDR up Underway the link for the secondary air defense Cannon is also at CDR go to the homepage select issues it's volume 25 issue 4 page 80