Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[hauritz]

I sincerely hope that the Gov't kills this nonsense quickly. The last thing Canada needs is more political backroom deals!

Business group wants National Shipbuilding Strategy reopened for Quebec shipyard.

One of the biggest problems I can see with any National Shipbuilding Strategy is the backlog of work that currently exists. If the plan they are talking about is similar to that of Australia then they would essentially be mapping out a shipbuilding schedule that will carry them through the next 25 to 30 years. I can see why the government would love it as it would effectively spread out the cost over the next few decades.

However, in the short term, it would mean a significant drop in the number of ships that would be available to the navy.

 

[ngatimozart]

One of the biggest problems I can see with any National Shipbuilding Strategy is the backlog of work that currently exists. If the plan they are talking about is similar to that of Australia then they would essentially be mapping out a shipbuilding schedule that will carry them through the next 25 to 30 years. I can see why the government would love it as it would effectively spread out the cost over the next few decades.

However, in the short term, it would mean a significant drop in the number of ships that would be available to the navy.

Point is that whatever plan that is suggested would be logical and our Canadian cousins have been logicphobic for the last 9 years, so unless we can engineer a revolution or 2, our Canuck cuzzies are stuck with the current pollies and bureaucrats who have managed to politicise and pork barrel defence procurement even more than their southern neighbours.

I suppose Australia & NZ could annex Canada for the common good. Wonder if The Boss (HM The Queen) would be agreeable. Aussie could run the govt but no spills, NZ the bureaucracy and military procurement. We could build a wall on the southern border and the US would pay for it. Now that's a plan so cunning even Baldrick would be proud of it.

 

[hauritz]

It just takes a big shovel to throw out the the BS. Their claim of building the largest ship for the RCN, what a crock of shit. A conversion of an existing ship with a new superstructure supplied by a Finnish shipyard for only $700 million. It was a reasonable quick fix for the RCN but to to claim they are Canada’s largest and most experienced yard, only in the mind of a Québécois.

Yeah ... funny how they can twist words to make it sound like this is some sort of huge achievement. "Putting into service" as opposed to actually building a new ship.

Looking at that video the one thing it does seem to confirm though is that the program is now almost hopelessly delayed. It may be time for desperate action ... namely building some of these ships overseas. The $700 million spent on the interim replacement of the JSS would have gone a long way towards paying for proper replacements from Spain or Korea.

 

[John Fedup]

Yep, as I have said before, something similar to the the RN’s Tide class from SK works for me! The money saved goes a long way towards a new heavy icebreaker and SeaSpan could start construction now rather than pi$$ing around on overpriced Berlins.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

The part to take from the video is the shear number of vessels for the CCG that are not part of the NSBP and there appears to be no movement on their replacement. Seapan and Irving are precluded from those builds and there are more shipyards than Davie that can build them.

The problem is the beauracrats who are mismanaging the whole program. Incompetence typical of governments. No experience in such work.

I still love the quality of the video.

 

[John Fedup]

I believe Hike is building some stuff for the CCG as is SeaSpan. The latter is supposed to build the heavy icebreaker. Davie is converting some smaller offshore vessels (ex oil rig) into light icebreakers. They should accept this business gracefully and STFU.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I look at the Canadian ship building and I ask, so what is the priority.

But it seems that Canadians can make anything last forever, planes, ships, subs, even nuclear reactors. No engineering required, just the power of legislation. They also aren't apparently outcome driven.

When the AWD program was falling behind, Australia was trying to move heaven and earth to make it faster and back on track. Massive penalties, which were then re-invested into trying to get it back on track through other yards. Lots of input from externals on how to get it going. We have a minister of defence and a minister of defence industries, which is a good idea when the government is both the customer and sometimes prime contractor, at least separate the ministerial level. For all the pain, we have 2 ships and 3rd just about complete, they a very capable and we have a much better plan going forward. 3 production lines, churning out vessels continiously, forever, with carefully managed drum beats.

I remember the JSS originally as the Big Honking Ship, back in 2005.

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This was back when it was looking like a proper amphibious ship, like our LHD's.
But there is no urgency. I don't know why. Canada is just as close to China as Australia is. Canada is just as much a former UK colony as Australia was, and should have similar obligations regarding ex-colonies as Australia does.

To highlight it..

Currently, Canada's largest icebreaker half the size of the new Australian Icebreaker, and the Canadian one was built in the 1960's, at least Aurora Australias was built in the 1980's and started service in the 1990's. Even if Canada builds their new icebreaker, it is still smaller than Australia's.

In Australia's role to help less fortunate countries of the commonwealth, would Canada be interested in taking over Aurora Australias after our new super icebreaker is delivered later this year(!). We would sell it too you for $100 million.. Its a good deal, its 30 years younger than CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent.

 

[John Fedup]

This was back when it was looking like a proper amphibious ship, like our LHD's.
But there is no urgency. I don't know why. Canada is just as close to China as Australia is. Canada is just as much a former UK colony as Australia was, and should have similar obligations regarding ex-colonies as Australia does.

Why?.....the Quebec factor

In Australia's role to help less fortunate countries of the commonwealth, would Canada be interested in taking over Aurora Australias after our new super icebreaker is delivered later this year(!). We would sell it too you for $100 million.. Its a good deal, its 30 years younger than CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent.

Good deal but it is likely too new for junior. Try in 10 years. If Liberals are still in power, they will still have a PM as useless as junior.

 

[Calculus]

Even if Canada builds their new icebreaker, it is still smaller than Australia's.

It might be heavier, but it will not be as capable, in either ice breaking, speed, or range: CCGS John G. Diefenbaker - Wikipedia

Icebreaker specifications

Nuyina: Icebreaker specifications. I would hesitate to call this a "super icebreaker". Not even as capable as Louis St Laurent: Class 1300 Icebreaker Louis S. St-Laurent

 

[John Fedup]

Neither are ideal. Canada should have gone with a modernized version of Polar 8, a ship that could operate year round in the Arctic. Perhaps the thinking on building a Polar class 2 icebreaker is global warming will make Polar class 1 icebreakers unnecessary in a decade or so ( and probably the earliest date the CCG will ever see a new “heavy”).

 

[Calculus]

Canada is just as much a former UK colony as Australia was, and should have similar obligations regarding ex-colonies as Australia does.

I'm not familiar with this. What obligations do ex-colonies have? Reference please.

 

[John Fedup]

I'm not familiar with this. What obligations do ex-colonies have? Reference please.

Just a guess on my part but perhaps when Australia and NZ went off on their own they assumed some responsibility for Pacific territories under British jurisdiction.

 

[Calculus]

Just a guess on my part but perhaps when Australia and NZ went off on their own they assumed some responsibility for Pacific territories under British jurisdiction.

I would still like to see this explained, especially with regards to its reference to Canada. I simply do not understand this comment, and have not been able to find anything on this topic on the Web.

 

[Calculus]

Cool pics of HMCS Toronto getting ready for deployment.

Loading Harpoon


Loading ESSM

 

[Calculus]

And here she's shown on-boarding one of the new Maritime Helicopters (CH-148 Cyclone). Only the second time one has been deployed operationally.

 

[ASSAIL]

I would still like to see this explained, especially with regards to its reference to Canada. I simply do not understand this comment, and have not been able to find anything on this topic on the Web.

It is both Australia’s and New Zealand’s strategic interest to have stable and economically viable Pacific neighbours.
To this end Australian aid to these nations include a gift of Patrol Boats (22} and ongoing Maritime surveillance utilising civilian aircraft.

It is also important to remember that Papua was an an Australian colony (annexed by British Queensland ) and the Northern half, the old German colony of New Guinea, was mandated to Australia under the reparation terms under the Treaty of Versailles post WW1.
The entire development of modern PNG was Australia’s full obligation until their independence in 1975 and remains a responsibility now.

A summary of Australian Pacific activity is linked.
Overview of Australia's Pacific Regional aid program

NZ has a long cultural and commercial relationship with the Pacific and has 8% of its population of Pacific Island decent.
I apologise for the long winded link but it goes far in explaining NZ’s obligations in the Pacific.
1. – Pacific Islands and New Zealand – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand

 

[ngatimozart]

Just a guess on my part but perhaps when Australia and NZ went off on their own they assumed some responsibility for Pacific territories under British jurisdiction.

Yep and look what happened when Canada abrogated it's responsibility for the colonies below it's southern border - the heathens up and rebelled.

 

[Todjaeger]

Yep and look what happened when Canada abrogated it's responsibility for the colonies below it's southern border - the heathens up and rebelled.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

 

[Calculus]

It is both Australia’s and New Zealand’s strategic interest to have stable and economically viable Pacific neighbours.
To this end Australian aid to these nations include a gift of Patrol Boats (22} and ongoing Maritime surveillance utilising civilian aircraft.

It is also important to remember that Papua was an an Australian colony (annexed by British Queensland ) and the Northern half, the old German colony of New Guinea, was mandated to Australia under the reparation terms under the Treaty of Versailles post WW1.
The entire development of modern PNG was Australia’s full obligation until their independence in 1975 and remains a responsibility now.

A summary of Australian Pacific activity is linked.
Overview of Australia's Pacific Regional aid program

NZ has a long cultural and commercial relationship with the Pacific and has 8% of its population of Pacific Island decent.
I apologise for the long winded link but it goes far in explaining NZ’s obligations in the Pacific.
1. – Pacific Islands and New Zealand – Te Ara Encyclopedia of New Zealand

Thanks for the response Assail. Interesting, and understandable. It is always good to have stable neighbours. I still don't see the relevance to Canada, however. Perhaps StingrayOZ can chime in and explain this comment...

 

[John Fedup]

Yep and look what happened when Canada abrogated it's responsibility for the colonies below it's southern border - the heathens up and rebelled.

Well at least we and our British allies took some action that resulted in the renaming of the house Donald now resides at ( when he isn’t golfing).