Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I would agree with Todj regarding LHDs. The RNZN / NZDF has had to do the crawl / walk / run process and I think we are still very much in the crawl phase. We have made a couple of big mistakes but my belief is that Canada should start with a medium sized LPD first in order to learn with. But first of all it has to decide if it needs / wants to have an amphibious force and if so, what will it be used for. That force has to be a purple force and the major capabilities within it, e.g., amphibious ships are purple assets, not single service. My 1 cents worth.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I would agree with Todj regarding LHDs. The RNZN / NZDF has had to do the crawl / walk / run process and I think we are still very much in the crawl phase. We have made a couple of big mistakes but my belief is that Canada should start with a medium sized LPD first in order to learn with. But first of all it has to decide if it needs / wants to have an amphibious force and if so, what will it be used for. That force has to be a purple force and the major capabilities within it, e.g., amphibious ships are purple assets, not single service. My 1 cents worth.
But Canada has the ultimate amphibious ship, the Queenstons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queenston-class_auxiliary_vessel.

The JSS project started not long after JP2048, that was for the Canberra class. The two projects started out with similar aims, and, er, diverged. Go search for Big Honking Ship.

LPD - Big Honking Ship (BHS)

They ended up with a modified AOR, Australia bought two of the largest LHD's it could operate and a LPD.

IMO there is no reason Canada couldn't build up a force 40-50% larger than the ADF. It would be very easy for them to do so. Logistics with the US and issues like Training etc are far easier than with any other nation.

But that is the problem. Canada isn't a global citizen. It can't see past the US or Europe. It doesn't see a defined role or need for itself. It assumes the status quo will remain forever. It has the same problem most of NATO has. Not my problem.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I would agree with Todj regarding LHDs. The RNZN / NZDF has had to do the crawl / walk / run process and I think we are still very much in the crawl phase. We have made a couple of big mistakes but my belief is that Canada should start with a medium sized LPD first in order to learn with. But first of all it has to decide if it needs / wants to have an amphibious force and if so, what will it be used for. That force has to be a purple force and the major capabilities within it, e.g., amphibious ships are purple assets, not single service. My 1 cents worth.
Yeah I'd agree with that sentiment, but believe Canada needs to jump in feet first in regards to capabilty. Whilst eventually they might need something like CBR they could take a leaf out of RAN play book, A couple of enhanced Cheong Wang Bong class with full C&C and hangers for helicopters (similer to the RAN Kanimbla LPA)
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Yeah I'd agree with that sentiment, but believe Canada needs to jump in feet first in regards to capabilty. Whilst eventually they might need something like CBR they could take a leaf out of RAN play book, A couple of enhanced Cheong Wang Bong class with full C&C and hangers for helicopters (similer to the RAN Kanimbla LPA)
They had the perfect opportunity pretty much fall into their laps a few years ago. A couple of bargain basement Mistrals were their's for the taking.

Admittedly Canada has already been burned buying secondhand equipment and these ships were full of Russian equipment ... but it was still the best opportunity they were ever likely to get.

All that was needed was a little political will.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
They had the perfect opportunity pretty much fall into their laps a few years ago. A couple of bargain basement Mistrals were their's for the taking.

Admittedly Canada has already been burned buying secondhand equipment and these ships were full of Russian equipment ... but it was still the best opportunity they were ever likely to get.

All that was needed was a little political will.
Not 100% sure but didn't Russia put restriction on the sale, they not have wanted the Canadian's with that sort of capbilty if they could help it
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Not 100% sure but didn't Russia put restriction on the sale, they not have wanted the Canadian's with that sort of capbilty if they could help it
I was under the impression that it was the Russian equipment aboard the ship that would need to have been removed.

In any case Canada wouldn't want that equipment anyway.

I believe that the equipment was left on those ships anyway when they ended up going to Egypt.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I was under the impression that it was the Russian equipment aboard the ship that would need to have been removed.
Yes I remember that was part of the deal

In any case Canada wouldn't want that equipment anyway.
Thas also true, but I don't know how hard it would be to reinstall new equipment, also not sue it tat entailed replacing cabling thru out the ship, it may have run into th cost of midlife upgrade on top of the purshase price


I believe that the equipment was left on those ships anyway when they ended up going to Egypt.
From memory I believe it was a third party supplying the funds
 

J_Can

Member
I would agree with Todj regarding LHDs. The RNZN / NZDF has had to do the crawl / walk / run process and I think we are still very much in the crawl phase. We have made a couple of big mistakes but my belief is that Canada should start with a medium sized LPD first in order to learn with. But first of all it has to decide if it needs / wants to have an amphibious force and if so, what will it be used for. That force has to be a purple force and the major capabilities within it, e.g., amphibious ships are purple assets, not single service. My 1 cents worth.
Yeah I'd agree with that sentiment, but believe Canada needs to jump in feet first in regards to capabilty. Whilst eventually they might need something like CBR they could take a leaf out of RAN play book, A couple of enhanced Cheong Wang Bong class with full C&C and hangers for helicopters (similer to the RAN Kanimbla LPA)
Would something like the Mistral 140 be a good option then to slowly learn the trade craft of joint-amphibious ops? Yet still have a decent existing meaningful sea/air lift ability. This would allow use to start small, and hopeful with prices being low we might be able to acquire a sufficient amount of hulls (3 maybe). The price might even be low enough to allow domestic product at either Seaspan or Davie shipyards.

In regards to amphibious force it is absolute necessary for Canada to have one. Not so much from kinetic perspective (although the need is still there), but as a HADR/ aid to civil power it is a must have need. For example west coast is just waiting for the "big one" earthquake to occur. Yet the west coast is isolated in terms of road access (one big earthquake and the Rocky Mountain road passes are shut-down), while Vancouver International Airport is right on the coast (will likely be shut-down during a massive quake/ after effects), and all active military units that might be able to respond on the west coast are based on Vancouver Island; with no meaningful air lift and absolute no organic sea lift. If only for this possible HADR response on the west-coast Canada needs an amphibious force imho.

Recently the head of the Canadian Army said he wants to see the regular force light infantry battalions to be experts with air-mobile and amphibious ops. Which shows at the very least the Canadian Army institutional wants and feels like there is a need for amphibious lift. Of course political will and budget will ultimately dictate if any amphibious force is stood up in Canada.

(canadiandefencereview.com/Featured_content?blog/48 [cant post yet sorry]).
 

Delta204

Active Member
Some interesting discussion going on here, some of which has already been discussed in the past. Todj has indeed summed it up pretty well here; I would only add that IF (big if) the RCN gets some LPD/LHD's it would have to come with additional funding and NOT at the expense of the RCN's frigate numbers. A fleet of 12-15 multi-role (with ASW emphasis) frigates offer the best bang per dollar to the RCN for what we ask it to do now and into the future IMO. Going any lower would seriously degrade the RCN's capability.


Those big honking capital ships are expensive and this isn't the type of ship you can buy and keep parked until you need, the costs associated with outfitting/training/staffing and competently operating ships like this are massive. Look at the Dutch - they managed to build a very nice AOR/LPD hybrid in the Karel Doorman for a reasonable cost. Then, as soon as it's built, almost go and sell it off!! Fortunately they decided to keep it, but it was these types of costs that no doubt led them to partnering with the Germans to keep this vessel fully operational.

bundeswehr-sea-battalion-dutch-navy-integration

If the RCN wants this type of capability it's likely that we'd see some type of similar partnership IMO - this just isn't a capability the RCN can adequately manage with the current defense budget.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Three Mistral 140 would be a wonderful addition to the RCN. One in Esquimalt and the other two in Halifax. Hopefully would allow two in service at any one time.

Probably a better size fit given the lack of rotary assets that we have.

These would be an excellent way for Canada to provide HADR both domestically and internationally. The addition of one of these to a Canadian task group would provide so many opportunities.

Maybe Junior would agree to this if Davie got the work in the belle Provence?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Unfortunately, it seems as some have missed, or misunderstood, the implications of raising and sustaining an amphibious capability.

Canada has managed without an amphib capability since WWII IIRC, I do think it should have one, since that would provide Defence and gov't a range of additional options, but it so far has not been a necessity.

Also, any decision to develop an amphib capability needs to be a joint (purple) defence decision, as such a capability would require resources from across the defence force.

In order to be done effectively (in terms of both cost, output, and sustainability) significant planning needs to be done, otherwise Canada could waste or lose precious resources, and/or not have outputs when and where needed, Hence my crawl/walk/run comment.

Keep in mind that any amphibious force is going to pose service demands on the RCN, the RCAF, and the Army. I would therefore argue that Canada should start smallish, with perhaps a company-sized deployable amphibious force. Just to keep perspective, in order to sustain a company-sized force, ~three companies are required. By also going with a smaller sized sealift vessel, the ship would be less of a 'high value' target, which could ease the escort demands. I would also suggest that any amphibs be based together, preferably near to where the troops they would be transporting are based. Splitting sealift vessels between coasts IMO should only be done when there are sufficient numbers of everything involved for both coasts to support deployments. Having a single sealift vessel based by itself would mean half the time (if not more) there was no useful sealift output available from that base. The vessel could be unavailable due to training needs, or maintenance cycles, or the vessel might be ready, but there might not be enough escort ships to accompany it. Or everything could be ready in terms of RCN forces, but there might not be enough locally available Army troops to embark, etc.

I will go back to the Mistral-class vessels, to illustrate just how much their entry into RCN service would distort the entirety of Canadian defence. Assuming all three where homeported in Halifax, in order to sustain such a Canadian LHD deployment the following would likely be required:

  • 3 to 6 GP and/or ASW frigates
  • 3 area air defence-configured frigates or destroyers
  • ~1,400 troops trained in amphibious operations
  • ~40 MBT's to support landed troops
  • ~500 additional RCN personnel to serve as crews for the vessels
  • a mix of between 48 heavylift and 105 light helicopters

The above numbers are in the neighbourhood of those required to meet the likely training, maintenance, and operational cycles. And while Canadian forces likely exceed all of the above numbers (except perhaps for helicopters) those forces already in Canadian service have tasks at present. Reassigning said forces to support and sustain amphibious operations would then cause the current tasks to either be taken over by other assets, or left undone. For some tasks that could be fine if the task is relatively unimportant. Other tasks however...

At some point, I do think it would be good for Canada to be able to support and sustain a deployable, battalion-sized amphibious force. However, work and thought needs to go into developing such a Canadian capability.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
For the most part have to agree with Todjaeger.

Only area of disagreement, well not so much disagreement but cautious questioning is the number of helicopters and MBT's for the troops involved seems quite heavy but that isn't the big issue.

With the crawl/walk/run phase I guess the best thing would be to work out which vessel's would be most suitable to Canada able to assist in such amphibious operations but not requiring a massive expenditure in acquisition or crew numbers required.

Without going down to LST sized vessels the two options that come to mind would be the Singapore Endurance class and the Indonesian Makassar class LPD's. Both very simple but still quite capable vessels and perfect for a nation looking to get into amphibious operations.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
For the most part have to agree with Todjaeger.

Only area of disagreement, well not so much disagreement but cautious questioning is the number of helicopters and MBT's for the troops involved seems quite heavy but that isn't the big issue.

With the crawl/walk/run phase I guess the best thing would be to work out which vessel's would be most suitable to Canada able to assist in such amphibious operations but not requiring a massive expenditure in acquisition or crew numbers required.

Without going down to LST sized vessels the two options that come to mind would be the Singapore Endurance class and the Indonesian Makassar class LPD's. Both very simple but still quite capable vessels and perfect for a nation looking to get into amphibious operations.
The Mistral-class design has space for 13 MBT's on the vehicle deck, and the hangar has space for 16 heavy helicopters (CH-47 or CH-53), plus more could be carried on deck (six landing spots). Again, following the Rule of Threes...

For those that really wonder about the accuracy of the Rule of Threes, consider the RAN purchase of 24 MH-60R 'Romeo' naval helicopters. The objective was to get enough naval helicopters to ensure that eight were available for or already on operations.

In the case of any Canadian amphibious group, there would need to be sufficient support which remains behind. Assuming of course that a deployment would be sustained.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
Canada will have a company sized transport capability with the Project Resolve AOR.

The discussion here is going in the wrong direction. The RCN requires a multi purpose capability more than it needs an over the beach traditional amphibious capacity. We need an inherent ability to transport wheeled and outsize cargo, medical facilities and aviation capability. Said vessels could serve in so many ways as soft power options for the government of Canada.

The only base in Canada with sea, air and land transportation links is CFB Shearwater on the eastern side of Halifax harbour. This strategic asset was almost lost under the liberal government during the decade of darkness of the early to mid 1990's. The home of naval aviation in Canada this base has been repeatedly earmarked for transformation into a base of operations for a joint forces hub. But unfortunately nothing has come of the various proposals and today we lack the funding or desire as witnessed by the gutting of the fleet with the last destroyer Athabaskan being paid off Friday.

I have photos of her paying off just need to figure out how to crop them to fit the screen.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
LHDs for Canada....in your dreams. There simply isn't the political will for such an investment. Our pathetic electorate might consider 1 for HADR operations but IMO a smaller vessel would do as the only likely deployment area would be NA and the Carribean. If the LHDs are purchased, it will result in cuts to more valuable defence assets like future subs, fewer frigates, P-3 replacements, and probably doom the RCAF's chances for F-35s. The RCN needs 15 frigates and down the road new subs, hopefully 8. An LHD program would not be beneficial to the RCN until the electorate here grow TFU and be willing to properly fund national defence.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
LHDs for Canada....in your dreams. There simply isn't the political will for such an investment. Our pathetic electorate might consider 1 for HADR operations but IMO a smaller vessel would do as the only likely deployment area would be NA and the Carribean. If the LHDs are purchased, it will result in cuts to more valuable defence assets like future subs, fewer frigates, P-3 replacements, and probably doom the RCAF's chances for F-35s. The RCN needs 15 frigates and down the road new subs, hopefully 8. An LHD program would not be beneficial to the RCN until the electorate here grow TFU and be willing to properly fund national defence.
On topic of submarines for it to be any worthwhile investment Canada would need a minimum of 6 split between the coasts to make it worth while other wise it's just a wasted investment with there being too few submarines to always have at least 1 available on each coast.

Should in future the Canadian government go ahead with a submarine replacement I'd hazard a guess that if they went for a 1 for 1 replacement only then they would be better off scrapping the submarines entirely and putting the funds to use else where.

On the plus side if they do scrap them Australia can step in and steal away all the personnel involved with Canada's submarine force, We will need the extra bodies. Thanks in advance for them :)
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
If Canada wants to be serious about having a navy that can protect its sovereignty and coastal areas, a new submarine fleet would be money well spent. I agree, 8 boats minimum should be the goal for a future fleet. The sooner a commitment is made to renew the sub fleet will ensure our submariners stay put. Australia's future fleet of 12 subs will be an enticingly attraction for our guys if our government doesn't step up.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If Canada wants to be serious about having a navy that can protect its sovereignty and coastal areas, a new submarine fleet would be money well spent. I agree, 8 boats minimum should be the goal for a future fleet. The sooner a commitment is made to renew the sub fleet will ensure our submariners stay put. Australia's future fleet of 12 subs will be an enticingly attraction for our guys if our government doesn't step up.
as the russians are now disputing ownership of the northern shelf waters. then icebreakers, effective skimmers and hardened subs are the important issues

whether canada likes it or not, the russians now see that those waters are up for a challenge and that its a new sealane - and if they get their way on the shelf challenge - their sealanes
 

Delta204

Active Member
I'm torn when it comes to what Canada should do regarding submarines, one of the biggest considerations will be on arctic & ice operations. Are modern SSK's effective in this environment?

To me SSN's have such a clear advantage here that it would seem to be a waste to spend so much capital on a large fleet of SSK's (Obviously in a perfect world we would go ahead and acquire a fleet of SSN's but we all know the odds of that ever happening are nearly impossible). So what then? with SSK's we'd pretty much be limited to monitoring entrances and exists of these sea-lanes below the ice but we wouldn't be able to follow any foreign SSN's that are sailing on through in any meaningful way - even with AIP.

Instead of buying a fleet of ~8 SSK's perhaps we'd get more value in keeping a smaller fleet (4-5 subs) and investing the remainder in acoustical surveillance (SOSUS) systems and P-8's?
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
LHDs for Canada....in your dreams. There simply isn't the political will for such an investment.
Putting aside LHD's for Canada or not (won't hold my breath on that one!), I still have grave concerns that the planned, or should I say 'proposed' 15 new surface combatants, is a pipe dream in itself.

Whilst Canada continues to spend less than 1% of GDP on Defence and while there is no bipartisan support for defence and defence spending, then all these 'lists' of what the RCN should look like are pointless.

I'm not going to get political and say it is the current Governments fault, it's 'both' sides of Canadian politics that can share the blame, and until that situation changes, well unfortunately we will continue to see the demise of the RCN as it once was.

Thank God that, despite how stupid our Australian politicians can be and are, at least there is a 'reasonable' level of bipartisan support for defence, defence procurement and levels of defence spending too here.

Until something similar happens in Canada, well........
 
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