John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The AOPS budget now only allows for 4 ships, down from 8 then 5 since 2011. It is beyond me why any contractor would want to do business with the CDN government. What a bunch of &sucking morons.
Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates
- Thread starter stephen weist
- Start date
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
SeaSpan has completed the modernization of their Vancouver shipyard at a cost of 170 million dollars. It would be nice to see some signs of actual ship construction now. The AORs are urgently required by the RCN along with the promised icebreaker.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The DND has finally admitted that the RCN does not have enough funding for the Arctic Ofshore Patrol Ship program and it is now going to appeal for more money from the Treasury board. Two points, point one, good luck with the request considering the Harper govt wants to balance the budget for the upcoming election and point two, the RCN should have walked away from this project long ago and left it to the coast guard. The coast guard could then have made the case for real ice breakers and the politicians could authorize some guns and claim we now have the tools for Arctic Sovereignity....LOL!
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
A new article at casr.ca by Steve Daly discusses the Iver Huitfeldt class frigate as a possible model for the CSC program.
Couple things:
1) The Iver Huitfeldt is an impressive ship on paper with a lot of size and capability for a ridiculously low price. However, I have read (not sure where) that the Absalon / Iver Huitfeldt design is not as survivable as other warships with similar size as it is built utilizing more commercial standards than military. Not sure if there is any truth to this, however it could explain why the Danes were able to keep costs so low on these ships. If true, I doubt the RCN would pick this design as they pride themselves with having large crew levels and high survivability while operating in high intensity combat operations. The RCN has, by in large, avoided the trend by some European navies that have outfitted their warships with skeleton crews or limited combat systems.
2. StanFlex is overrated IMO. I know a lot of people love StanFlex and think it's a very clever idea but I'm not a fan. StanFlex maybe makes sense for smaller vessels or navy's on a budget but on large combatants I don't see the point. IMO a MK41 VLS is far more "flexible" than StanFlex is. I believe the Iver's have 4 StanFlex areas located beside the 32 cell strike length MK41 VLS; I would like to see if the design could be modified and remove the StanFlex areas to plumb in a 16 cell self-defense length MK41. This would give these ships the potential to carry 64 ESSM's and 32 SM-2 / SM-6's for an AWD variant. Besides, virtually every new naval missile in development is being designed to fire from some type of VLS system. If we are concerned about "future proofing" these vessels more MK41 cells is probably our best bet. Also, I don't know why the author is so focused on recycling weapon systems, these ships are only going operational sometime in the 2020's and I'll be damned if we are going to being putting Harpoons and 76mm guns that are decades old on brand new $1.7B ships!
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The Canadian government finally inked a deal with Irving Shipyards for 6 Arctic Offshore Patrol vessels or as some call them, "light icebreakers".
Perhaps the more assertive posture by the Russians in the Arctic might be beneficial for the RCN?
The RCN has the unenviable characteristic with needing to be a two-ocean force.
The RCN has the unenviable characteristic with needing to be a two-ocean force.
Plenty of upgrades available for each.
The 76mm upgraded to 76/62 Super Rapid configuration with the Strales targeting system and Cupola, DART ammunition, 3AP fuses and Vulcano extended range, precision guided rounds, would be nothing to sneeze at and would make your frigates one of the best equipped 'gun' frigates on the planet...
Harpoon Block II is an excellent, modern and actually operational weapon system. Upgrade kits for Australian Block IC missile inventory, totalled about AUD $30m to turn the entire inventory into Block II weapons.
Both upgrades would set your Country back less than US $300m in total (including initial guided ammunition warstock) and would dramatically improve the combat capability of these vessels.
Very much inline with the new USN view of 'street fighter' surface action groups.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The Ottawa Citizen's Defence Watch blog has an article discussing the RCN's sorry state regarding its support ships (lack of). Great comment from John Newman suggesting a temporary solution for the RCN (lease a German Berlin class ship).
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The German navy had an original requirement for two ships. A consortium of German shipyards built a third ship which some believe was a make- work project. It was accepted into service in 2011. The Germans might consider leasing this ship, it saves them some money and would be good PR, assuming it Isn't really required.
DefenseNews did a piece about this recently, proposals to lease USN supply ships have been dropped for cost/availability issues so the next line of thinking is leasing a commercial vessel for refuelling underway as a minimum capability.
Canada Seeks Naval Supply Ship Lease
Canada Seeks Naval Supply Ship Lease
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The commercial alternative is likely the stop-gap but a Berlin lease has the advantage of training RCN sailors for the arrival of our own Berlins during the construction period.
mysterious
New Member
Making Waves: The Navy's Arctic Ambition Revealed
How Canada Will Patrol the North
For the Royal Canadian Navy, it’s been seven stormy years since Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced the construction of the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships (AOPS).
There has been criticism of the program on many fronts: how delays prevented a 2013 first-ship delivery; how projected costs jumped $400-million; why the Nanisivik Arctic naval base on Baffin Island was downgraded to a refuelling station; and how the ships – originally planned to be eight, but now only five or possibly six – would be slow-moving “slushbreakers,” as opposed to icebreakers.
But now the course is set. With the AOPS designs finalized and the first steel set to be cut in September at Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax, it’s finally clear what the Navy will be capable of when the new ships set sail for the Arctic.
The $3.5-billion deal signed with Irving in January calls for the construction of five ships, with incentives for the yard to deliver six. The 103-metre long vessels, each crewed by a complement of 65, will be able to cut through one-metre first-year ice, thereby opening a vast area of the southern portion of Canada’s Arctic archipelago to the Navy, as well as extending the navigable Arctic season in the eastern region from weeks to months. It’s expected the ships will be escorted by coast guard icebreakers for missions into heavier ice.
The first ship, named the Harry DeWolf after the decorated wartime RCN commander from Bedford, N.S., is scheduled to launch in 2018. The rest of them are expected to follow in roughly nine-month intervals.
The Nanisivik refuel station will play a key role. It will untether the ships from their bases in Halifax and Equimalt, B.C., allowing them to maximize their 6,800 nautical-mile range and 120-day endurance. The Navy says the ships will provide three key operational capabilities:
- “sea-bourne surveillance of Canada's waters, including the Arctic”;
- “situational awareness of activities and events in these regions”;
- and assertion and enforcement “of Canadian sovereignty when and where necessary.”
Mr. Harper says they will be able to patrol the length of the Northwest Passage during the four-month shipping season, as well as guard its approaches year-round. In 2013, ships made 22 passage transits, according to the Canadian Coast Guard, including the first-ever commercial transit by the Danish bulk carrier Nordic Orion.
Beyond that, “how the ships are going to be deployed in the Arctic is yet to be determined,” the Navy said in a statement to The Globe and Mail. “There are no specifically identified patrol areas to the AOPS. Patrol areas will vary depending on several variables, most notably the assigned mission.”
Declarations of the importance of the Canadian Arctic to the nation’s identity date back to the time of John Diefenbaker. But despite countless patriotic speeches by prime ministers since then, Canada has fallen short in asserting its sovereignty and authority in that vast region defined by water and ice, particularly when it comes to the Navy.
During the height of the Cold War, the state-of the-art navy icebreaker HMCS Labrador was used to help build the Distant Early Warning (DEW) Line radar system and show the flag in the High Arctic. The ship won fame in 1954 for being the first to circumnavigate North America, sailing from its home port of Halifax, transiting the Northwest Passage, then returning to Halifax through the Panama Canal.
But after the Labrador was transferred to the coast guard in 1958, military analysts argue, it was the Arctic’s harsh environment that did more to protect Canada’s sovereignty in the north than the Navy.
In recent years, climate change has raised the stakes and even non-Arctic nations have been looking north for new shipping routes, resource development and a place to express their national ambitions. In response, Mr. Harper laid out a more muscular approach for Canada in 2007.
“Canada has a choice when it comes to defending our sovereignty over the Arctic. We either use it or lose it. And make no mistake, this government intends to use it,” Mr. Harper said when announcing the navy’s AOPS program. “It is no exaggeration to say that the need to assert our sovereignty and protect our territorial integrity in the Arctic – on our terms – has never been more urgent.”
However, legal experts say there are only two small disputes related to Canada’s ownership in the North: one over the ownership of tiny Hans Island between Canada and Greenland, and the other between the United States and Canada over about 6,250 square nautical miles of seabed rights in the Beaufort Sea.
Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, RCN commander, says the key challenge the military faces in the far North is “sustainability.” It has conducted several operations and exercises in recent years, but they have been largely limited to the relatively mild eastern Arctic for a few weeks at the height of the summer.
“Obviously, the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships will play a key role in enabling the RCN with its other government partners in opening up our ability to operate and sustain operations in the High Arctic,” he told the Commons committee on National Defence in November. “We’re excited by the opportunity to establish a refuelling facility in Nanisivik, which will allow us to stage ourselves and reach even farther into the north.”
He said that reach must be in partnership with other government agencies and departments, particularly the Canadian Coast Guard and the RCMP. “We are looking to the experiences of our coast guard partners with respect to how we can sustain deployed activity in the north, looking at new crewing models, new ways of maintaining a visible presence, a Canadian flag … in that vast expanse that’s so important to us.”
The AOPS will be the first ships built under the $36.6-billion National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy that Ottawa outlined in 2011. Following the vessels will be 15 surface combatants, three naval support ships, four other coast guard vessels for fishery and oceanography sciences, as well as a coast guard heavy icebreaker to be called the Diefenbaker. The shipbuilding program will span 20 to 30 years and create 15,000 direct and indirect jobs.
In Halifax, the Irving shipyard is busy completing a $300-million upgrading project to put in place new facilities, processes and workforce, with September set as the target to start work on the first ship, HMCS Harry DeWolf.
Based on sophisticated three-dimensional software, a design-then-build process will see the construction of 62 separate building blocks for each ship. In a complex 3-D puzzle, those blocks will then be assembled into three “mega blocs” – aft, centre and bow – which will in turn then be welded together to form a finished ship.
Making waves: The Navy's Arctic ambition revealed - The Globe and Mail
A very informative article from The Globe and Mail yesterday which also has an interactive feature where you can see the picture of the vessel and how each aspect of the ship plays its part in line with Canada's strategy to safeguard its North.
I, for one, think they should've stuck with the initial plan to order 8 ships with more ice-breaking capabilities (more than the current 1 metre thickness) so that they would truly not need any ice-breaker escorts at all. Unless someone more knowledgeable can enlighten me on ice thickness in waters up North on average since I'm way south in Toronto.
Also worth noting is that the vessels will be carrying Pickup Trucks, ATVs and Snowmobiles in the Vehicle Bay.
Canada MUST protect its waters, particularly our Canadian Northwest Passages. Canadian sovereignty and writ MUST be enforced at all costs.
How Canada Will Patrol the North
For the Royal Canadian Navy, it’s been seven stormy years since Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced the construction of the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships (AOPS).
There has been criticism of the program on many fronts: how delays prevented a 2013 first-ship delivery; how projected costs jumped $400-million; why the Nanisivik Arctic naval base on Baffin Island was downgraded to a refuelling station; and how the ships – originally planned to be eight, but now only five or possibly six – would be slow-moving “slushbreakers,” as opposed to icebreakers.
But now the course is set. With the AOPS designs finalized and the first steel set to be cut in September at Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax, it’s finally clear what the Navy will be capable of when the new ships set sail for the Arctic.
The $3.5-billion deal signed with Irving in January calls for the construction of five ships, with incentives for the yard to deliver six. The 103-metre long vessels, each crewed by a complement of 65, will be able to cut through one-metre first-year ice, thereby opening a vast area of the southern portion of Canada’s Arctic archipelago to the Navy, as well as extending the navigable Arctic season in the eastern region from weeks to months. It’s expected the ships will be escorted by coast guard icebreakers for missions into heavier ice.
The first ship, named the Harry DeWolf after the decorated wartime RCN commander from Bedford, N.S., is scheduled to launch in 2018. The rest of them are expected to follow in roughly nine-month intervals.
The Nanisivik refuel station will play a key role. It will untether the ships from their bases in Halifax and Equimalt, B.C., allowing them to maximize their 6,800 nautical-mile range and 120-day endurance. The Navy says the ships will provide three key operational capabilities:
- “sea-bourne surveillance of Canada's waters, including the Arctic”;
- “situational awareness of activities and events in these regions”;
- and assertion and enforcement “of Canadian sovereignty when and where necessary.”
Mr. Harper says they will be able to patrol the length of the Northwest Passage during the four-month shipping season, as well as guard its approaches year-round. In 2013, ships made 22 passage transits, according to the Canadian Coast Guard, including the first-ever commercial transit by the Danish bulk carrier Nordic Orion.
Beyond that, “how the ships are going to be deployed in the Arctic is yet to be determined,” the Navy said in a statement to The Globe and Mail. “There are no specifically identified patrol areas to the AOPS. Patrol areas will vary depending on several variables, most notably the assigned mission.”
Declarations of the importance of the Canadian Arctic to the nation’s identity date back to the time of John Diefenbaker. But despite countless patriotic speeches by prime ministers since then, Canada has fallen short in asserting its sovereignty and authority in that vast region defined by water and ice, particularly when it comes to the Navy.
During the height of the Cold War, the state-of the-art navy icebreaker HMCS Labrador was used to help build the Distant Early Warning (DEW) Line radar system and show the flag in the High Arctic. The ship won fame in 1954 for being the first to circumnavigate North America, sailing from its home port of Halifax, transiting the Northwest Passage, then returning to Halifax through the Panama Canal.
But after the Labrador was transferred to the coast guard in 1958, military analysts argue, it was the Arctic’s harsh environment that did more to protect Canada’s sovereignty in the north than the Navy.
In recent years, climate change has raised the stakes and even non-Arctic nations have been looking north for new shipping routes, resource development and a place to express their national ambitions. In response, Mr. Harper laid out a more muscular approach for Canada in 2007.
“Canada has a choice when it comes to defending our sovereignty over the Arctic. We either use it or lose it. And make no mistake, this government intends to use it,” Mr. Harper said when announcing the navy’s AOPS program. “It is no exaggeration to say that the need to assert our sovereignty and protect our territorial integrity in the Arctic – on our terms – has never been more urgent.”
However, legal experts say there are only two small disputes related to Canada’s ownership in the North: one over the ownership of tiny Hans Island between Canada and Greenland, and the other between the United States and Canada over about 6,250 square nautical miles of seabed rights in the Beaufort Sea.
Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, RCN commander, says the key challenge the military faces in the far North is “sustainability.” It has conducted several operations and exercises in recent years, but they have been largely limited to the relatively mild eastern Arctic for a few weeks at the height of the summer.
“Obviously, the Arctic/Offshore Patrol Ships will play a key role in enabling the RCN with its other government partners in opening up our ability to operate and sustain operations in the High Arctic,” he told the Commons committee on National Defence in November. “We’re excited by the opportunity to establish a refuelling facility in Nanisivik, which will allow us to stage ourselves and reach even farther into the north.”
He said that reach must be in partnership with other government agencies and departments, particularly the Canadian Coast Guard and the RCMP. “We are looking to the experiences of our coast guard partners with respect to how we can sustain deployed activity in the north, looking at new crewing models, new ways of maintaining a visible presence, a Canadian flag … in that vast expanse that’s so important to us.”
The AOPS will be the first ships built under the $36.6-billion National Shipbuilding Procurement Strategy that Ottawa outlined in 2011. Following the vessels will be 15 surface combatants, three naval support ships, four other coast guard vessels for fishery and oceanography sciences, as well as a coast guard heavy icebreaker to be called the Diefenbaker. The shipbuilding program will span 20 to 30 years and create 15,000 direct and indirect jobs.
In Halifax, the Irving shipyard is busy completing a $300-million upgrading project to put in place new facilities, processes and workforce, with September set as the target to start work on the first ship, HMCS Harry DeWolf.
Based on sophisticated three-dimensional software, a design-then-build process will see the construction of 62 separate building blocks for each ship. In a complex 3-D puzzle, those blocks will then be assembled into three “mega blocs” – aft, centre and bow – which will in turn then be welded together to form a finished ship.
Making waves: The Navy's Arctic ambition revealed - The Globe and Mail
A very informative article from The Globe and Mail yesterday which also has an interactive feature where you can see the picture of the vessel and how each aspect of the ship plays its part in line with Canada's strategy to safeguard its North.
I, for one, think they should've stuck with the initial plan to order 8 ships with more ice-breaking capabilities (more than the current 1 metre thickness) so that they would truly not need any ice-breaker escorts at all. Unless someone more knowledgeable can enlighten me on ice thickness in waters up North on average since I'm way south in Toronto.
Also worth noting is that the vessels will be carrying Pickup Trucks, ATVs and Snowmobiles in the Vehicle Bay.
Canada MUST protect its waters, particularly our Canadian Northwest Passages. Canadian sovereignty and writ MUST be enforced at all costs.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
These vessels should have better ice breaking ability given the fact Canada's heavy ice breaker fleet is near its end and no replacements will happen until the two Berlin AORs are completed by SeaSpan in BC. Canada likely will not see a new heavy ice breaker until 2022 at the earliest.
The third A702 was urgently needed since the other two previously used at sea day operational levels well beyond specification. The Navy originally had a requirement for even a forth A702, with only those two first ones being built. They even kept a 1960s-built ammo transport in operation for independent auxiliary tasks (which Bonn is specced for in addition to serving as an AOR) until the third A702 was commissioned.
They might actually soon have a problem with too few units again given that the urgently needed replacement for the two 40-year-old A704 Rhön AOs isn't really getting anywhere (at least the last budget round still had their replacement in it).
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Well, that's disappointing, leasing a German Berlin class would have been nice. Given our urgent need, Canada should just order a Berlin from a S Korean yard and have Seaspan start building the heavy icebreaker which is needed as urgently as the AORs. The other option is having a S Korea yard build the same AORs as the UK (Tide class).
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
I am sure they would. I would expect any off-shore build would likely be a competitive bid. What do you think of the UK decision for building the 4 Tide class ships in S Korea? Seems like a very attractive package.
IMO it was a slam dunk. Great delivery times plus great value. Besides which there wasn't a bid for any of them to be built in UK yards anyway.