Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Massive]

..., so it will be staged to the point the training outcome will suffer, albeit for a good reason....

I wonder about the ARG as a concept (and the word 'Ready' seems a bit of stretch).

Is it something that would ever be realistically used? Once the ARG has landed where do the follow-on forces come from? Also, can we realistically supply that force?

My view is that the army is too small to truly launch an amphibious landing of that size.

Not to say it's not impressive as a one shot thing, just wondering how practical it is.

Regards,

Massive

 

[gf0012-aust]

I wonder about the ARG as a concept (and the word 'Ready' seems a bit of stretch).

Is it something that would ever be realistically used? Once the ARG has landed where do the follow-on forces come from? Also, can we realistically supply that force?

My view is that the army is too small to truly launch an amphibious landing of that size.

Not to say it's not impressive as a one shot thing, just wondering how practical it is.

Regards,

Massive

stems from some of the uglier early fractious relationship issues with near neighbours and those events got translated into combat capability scenarios....

so its not d day, but its a recovery event for expats, friendlies and nationals who might get caught up in a local poltical event with a near neighbour etc......

think of another commonwealth country in recent times that caused some regional angst

 

[Raven22]

Is it something that would ever be realistically used? Once the ARG has landed where do the follow-on forces come from? Also, can we realistically supply that force?

Good questions, well asked...

There is currently an exercise running that practices the concept of the ARG making an amphibious landing to secure an SPOE and APOE, then a combat brigade being deployed, conducting a handover with the ARG and conducting some good old fashioned joint land combat. Needless to say a few holes in the concept are being papered over by magic and pixie dust.

As you say the Army just isn't big enough - we don't have the enablers to support both the amphibious force and a combat brigade at the same time. As has been mentioned before, to deploy an ARG would be a national main effort that would require significant mobilisation of the ADF to achieve. As would deploying a combat brigade against a near peer enemy. We certainly couldn't do both at the same time.

 

[vonnoobie]

Considering we would be unlikely to ever outside of a major war (ie: China) conduct such a large scale amphibious assult that it would require an entire ARG would it not be better to give each of our combat brigades an amphibious element similar to what the 3rd brigade is acquiring with the 2nd Battalion?

Only spit balling here but I figure if we lack enough personnel for 3 combat brigades and a full ARG, can't deploy both an ARG and a combat brigade that it would be better to give some amphibious capability to each combat brigade allowing them to secure a beach head to bring ashore the rest of the combat brigade.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Considering we would be unlikely to ever outside of a major war (ie: China) conduct such a large scale amphibious assult that it would require an entire ARG would it not be better to give each of our combat brigades an amphibious element similar to what the 3rd brigade is acquiring with the 2nd Battalion?

Only spit balling here but I figure if we lack enough personnel for 3 combat brigades and a full ARG, can't deploy both an ARG and a combat brigade that it would be better to give some amphibious capability to each combat brigade allowing them to secure a beach head to bring ashore the rest of the combat brigade.

Just my 2 cents.

normally (normally)

specials secure transport infrastructure, ports, airport, hold and wait for big army to arrive

that was plan A at one stage when there was concern about which way fiji might have turned out,

so the phatship combat vignette for fiji was, specials land, secure criticals, get ARH support in doing the job, ADG's progressively land and secure transport infrastructure, big army arrives, recover nationals, foreign nationals and anyone else other countries seek assistance on

pity about the ARH's being a woftam

 

[Raven22]

Considering we would be unlikely to ever outside of a major war (ie: China) conduct such a large scale amphibious assult that it would require an entire ARG would it not be better to give each of our combat brigades an amphibious element similar to what the 3rd brigade is acquiring with the 2nd Battalion?

Only spit balling here but I figure if we lack enough personnel for 3 combat brigades and a full ARG, can't deploy both an ARG and a combat brigade that it would be better to give some amphibious capability to each combat brigade allowing them to secure a beach head to bring ashore the rest of the combat brigade.

Just my 2 cents.

What you say is basically happening. Each brigade will provide the ground combat element for the amphibious capability as part of the force gen cycle. Whichever brigade is the 'ready' brigade will form the ARE.

 

[Nick underscore]

..so the phatship combat vignette for fiji was, specials land, secure criticals, get ARH support in doing the job, ADG's progressively land and secure transport infrastructure, big army arrives, recover nationals, foreign nationals and anyone else other countries seek assistance on..

Quick one and on the same Fijian parameters as above for gf (and Raven). Wrt the specials arriving on scene - would this be via air drop (C-27/ 130/ 17) or the two fat ladies?

In essence would 2CDO form the nucleus of the actual ARG? I assume this would apply to the ADG elements?

EDIT; I have seen elsewhere that 2CDO provides a rotational coy inconjunction and support of 3RAR

 

[gf0012-aust]

Wrt the specials arriving on scene - would this be via air drop (C-27/ 130/ 17) or the two fat ladies?

preferred taxi was subs, but depends on the event

 

[ngatimozart]

I really wouldn't want to have to take on the Fijians, on their home turf. There would be a lot of casualties all around. When the first coup occurred in 1986, our glorious leader (Lange) wanted to send the troops in. He was quickly talked out of it by NZDF as not being one of his brightest ideas. I have witnessed a fight between Fijian Army SNCO's and PNG Army SNCO's when they have been on the fire water and no one dared to step in between. Just left the lot of them to it. It made cage fighting look like old girls swing hand bags at each other.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I really wouldn't want to have to take on the Fijians, on their home turf. There would be a lot of casualties all around. When the first coup occurred in 1986, our glorious leader (Lange) wanted to send the troops in. He was quickly talked out of it by NZDF as not being one of his brightest ideas.

we went through the same exercise and with the same analysis

part of the reason for getting the phatships was based around lessons learnt from ET and from the initial analysis around Bainimara's first gig

taking the fijians on in home turf with less than initial overwhelming violent force was going to be an exercise in grief. nobody wanted to do that, and more to the point, the USN was the only force in region that could have done it

 

[Hazdog]

Look's very interesting for the future and for the development of Australian technology.

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/k...-defence-businesses-in-anti-submarine-warfare.

 

[Stampede]

I really wouldn't want to have to take on the Fijians, on their home turf. There would be a lot of casualties all around. When the first coup occurred in 1986, our glorious leader (Lange) wanted to send the troops in. He was quickly talked out of it by NZDF as not being one of his brightest ideas. I have witnessed a fight between Fijian Army SNCO's and PNG Army SNCO's when they have been on the fire water and no one dared to step in between. Just left the lot of them to it. It made cage fighting look like old girls swing hand bags at each other.

Understand the service chiefs went to the G and G and said that for all the good intentions they where just not up for this whole invade another country thing.
Just wondering;was it true there was a Hercules crewed and loaded to go,props turning ready for what know's, before sanity prevailed!

Regards S

Not sure if I'm off thread or not.

 

[hauritz]

I didn't realise that Austal had joined up with Fassmer for the OPV bid.

I guess this is some indication that Fassmer might have to be considered favourite at this stage,

Damen has hooked up with Civmec and it looks like Lurssen might go with BAE.

https://thewest.com.au/business/man...patrol-vessels-bid-with-germans-ng-b88390290z

I had to look up Civmec ... never heard of them before. Mostly involved in heavy industry they are looking at moving into shipbuilding and defence work. They started construction of an $80 million ship building facility in December. I may be wrong but I would imagine that with no real experience in ship building they are at long odds to win the OPV contract.

 

[Volkodav]

I didn't realise that Austal had joined up with Fassmer for the OPV bid.

I guess this is some indication that Fassmer might have to be considered favourite at this stage,

Damen has hooked up with Civmec and it looks like Lurssen might go with BAE.

https://thewest.com.au/business/man...patrol-vessels-bid-with-germans-ng-b88390290z

I had to look up Civmec ... never heard of them before. Mostly involved in heavy industry they are looking at moving into shipbuilding and defence work. They started construction of an $80 million ship building facility in December. I may be wrong but I would imagine that with no real experience in ship building they are at long odds to win the OPV contract.

Civmec bought out Forgacs and are and experienced heavy engineering concern so I would rate them above Austal and much a muchness, if not slightly ahead of BAE. It annoys me that Austal are trying to sleaze the batch one ships as well, I suspect this is mostly down to greed but I suspect they are very uncomfortable with the idea of the RAN having an apples to apples comparison of ASC built to Austal built OPVs for the life of type. All bs aside ASC is recognised globally for their quality and engineering, while Austal tend to rely on cost and schedule, with quality and engineering not as much as a priority.

 

[Cadredave]

Understand the service chiefs went to the G and G and said that for all the good intentions they where just not up for this whole invade another country thing.
Just wondering;was it true there was a Hercules crewed and loaded to go,props turning ready for what know's, before sanity prevailed!

Regards S

Not sure if I'm off thread or not.

The service chiefs cannot by pass the Government and go direct to the GG, it was done in house with the Government of the day, yes a C130H was on standby so was the POE Company at that time in Burnham, they were mobilised packed and waiting for the word to go.

CD

 

[Stampede]

The service chiefs cannot by pass the Government and go direct to the GG, it was done in house with the Government of the day, yes a C130H was on standby so was the POE Company at that time in Burnham, they were mobilised packed and waiting for the word to go.

CD

Thanks Cadredave,

Just a story I had heard that stood out as I was on the understanding the correct sequence of communication was by passed and Chiefs went direct to GG.
Probably mistaken.
Long time ago and memory not as sharp as days gone bye.

Regards S

 

[Massive]

Each brigade will provide the ground combat element for the amphibious capability as part of the force gen cycle.

Will this result in a rifle company, a CRV troop and various support elements being embarked for the whole 'Ready' phase or would it be rotated within the Ready brigade?

And would there be specialised training in the readying phase for the designated units?

Unclear how necessary specialised training would be.

Regards,

Massive

 

[alexsa]

I didn't realise that Austal had joined up with Fassmer for the OPV bid.

I guess this is some indication that Fassmer might have to be considered favourite at this stage,

Damen has hooked up with Civmec and it looks like Lurssen might go with BAE.

https://thewest.com.au/business/man...patrol-vessels-bid-with-germans-ng-b88390290z

.

I am not convinced of that. Austal got their sop in the form of the Pacific Patrol Boat and the last two Cape Class (for RAN) vessels. Damen have considerable engineering experience and this is mobile. When building with Damen in Vietnam it is the head office who run the show and they have expat QA and management on the ground.

Austal have never built a steel hull of this size. Austal's record with the ACPB is not exactly stellar given the vessels need significant remediation after a relatively short period.

The CIMVEX subsidiary Forgacs have been engaged in a number of naval engineering projects and the new facility at AMC will be well suited to building such vessels. The current Austal facility may struggle and I suspect they would have to use the AMC facility or expand (they may have to expand their workforce as it is quite small given they do not build many HSC PAX vessel here ... that got sent offshore ... and are focused on just the Capes and the Pacific Patrol boats).

Finally Damen have runs on the board after building the following for defense support:

• The EGS and RGS vessels (both about 90m LOA)
• The Aviation Training Vessel (over 90m LOA)
• The large four fuel/oil lighters
• Four tugs

Added to that the OPV85 is pretty much a known quantity.

 

[weegee]

More on SEA1180.

ASC, Forgacs join forces for Australian OPV construction | Naval Today

It seems as though ASC and Forgacs have joined forces. Together they would form a fairly formidable ship building capability one would think.

When is the winner bidder going to be announced? Considering they are to cut steel supposedly next year aren't they?

 

[Volkodav]

More on SEA1180.

ASC, Forgacs join forces for Australian OPV construction | Naval Today

It seems as though ASC and Forgacs have joined forces. Together they would form a fairly formidable ship building capability one would think.

When is the winner bidder going to be announced? Considering they are to cut steel supposedly next year aren't they?

Very interesting, I would suggest that this teaming may involve a shared block build on all twelve OPVs with the consolidation and combat system integration for the first two being in Adelaide and the rest in Henderson. This could then quite logically continue on with SEA5000 with ASC fabricating an pre outfitting superstructure and the more complex blocks and Civmec producing the lions share of the hull blocks.