Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting discussion on the SH-60B, thanks guys.

The thing I always recall when the Seahawk is being discussed is an article I read in the late 80s that discussed the costs of the project. From memory it was A$32m (late 80s dollars) per complete aircraft (vs A$20m at the time for Australian build Hornets and about A$40m a piece for new P-3Cs recently delivered) plus of course training and logistics overheads as well as structural modifications to HMAS Adelaide, Canberra and Sydney.

This is the bit I am a bit foggy on but over all the Seahawk acquisition was not only substantially more expensive than the competing Lynx (justified by the extra capability required to cover the loss of the carrier and its ASW aircraft), but possibly more expensive than acquiring Lynx as well as a ship (or ships) to operate the Sea Kings. The RAN SH-60B wasn't a FMS buy like the Romeo, it was as Spoz said a bespoke model developed specifically for Australian requirements, not a bad bit of kit by any means but very expensive. All in the past now but I have also read that Hermes for instance could have been accepted when offered and either retained in its ASW configuration or even refitted as a CTOL carrier able to operate Melbourne's airgroup, for less than the premium paid for the Seahawks.
Yes, they were expensive although it's a long time ago so I can't remember the exact figures; but I'm not sure if we could have run a 1000 person ship's company through the 90s for a lower cost thant the 'hawks And, it would ahve been politically impossible under the then government. The Lynx of the time was not nearly as capable although it would have fitted the (later) requirement which ended up in the Seasprite acquistion. In many ways the FAA would probably have preferred the Lynx for that; after all they had been dealing with Westlands in its various forms for decades. Really, though, after the OPC was cancelled in 96 or whenever we should have bough more Seahawk series, Foxtrots maybe.

One of the main drivers behind the combat system changes our Seahawk was to enable it to be flown by a single pilot (which also meant that the TACCO in the left hand seat had to know how to at least put it down on the back end safely, an issue in itself); with the direct FMS buy of USN clone Romeos they've presumably gone back to a four person crew which will add to overall through life costs I imagine.

The S-70B has been a pretty good buy overall, though - it's done us proud in a lot of difficult places around the world. I don't think its availability was quite what the RAN would have wished over the years, but then the 16 we bought were really only meant to fly off 6 decks for 20 years not the 14 we had available for a while, and with a service life of nearly 30 years.

The concept of a flight parent squadron which was also the training squadron, which I think generally worked OK, wasn't however as successful as the front line/second line approach we'd used in the past and which they've now adopted for Romeo. A bit of a case of back to the future there.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Personally I would love to see a LU Helo in the mix to provide basic search and low level operations (anti piracy) where I see a Romeo as a bit OTT, however, I doubt we will see that.
Thanks all for the reply.

I'm sure it's not an insignificant challenge to covert the Hobart's to a two helicopter hangar. Hopefully some space in the hangar for the ships helicopter and an additional UAV.
Also just curious as to the difficulty of storing the Mk 54 torpedo on the Hobart's re its safe fuel storage needs. Can this be fixed?

Regards S
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks all for the reply.

I'm sure it's not an insignificant challenge to covert the Hobart's to a two helicopter hangar. Hopefully some space in the hangar for the ships helicopter and an additional UAV.
Also just curious as to the difficulty of storing the Mk 54 torpedo on the Hobart's re its safe fuel storage needs. Can this be fixed?

Regards S
Anything can be fixed, it really is an issue if it is cost effective. Otto fuel is self oxidizing, not pretty if it gets out. the MU90 is battery powered. As such the storage requirements and fire protection is different.

I cannot give an indication of the work required as I simply do not have that detail.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Anything can be fixed, it really is an issue if it is cost effective. Otto fuel is self oxidizing, not pretty if it gets out. the MU90 is battery powered. As such the storage requirements and fire protection is different.

I cannot give an indication of the work required as I simply do not have that detail.
Magazine for the F-100 was designed for mk-46 which is also Otto fuel, I believe, but can't confirm, the changes to suit the MU90 related to stowage racks etc. What I can confirm is the question was definitely asked and assigned to the appropriate lead.
 

Flexson

Active Member
Actually I wish the navy would take a break from naming its ships after capital cities. I would love ship names such as HMAS Vendetta, Vampire or Voyager. Those sort of names just sound a lot more badass.
Signal was released about Darwin, she is due to be decommissioned end of next year, so I would say yes quite possible Sea 5000 will have a Darwin in there. Haven't seen anything about Melbourne and Newcastle but even though there was about a 7 and a half year gap between commissioning of Darwin and Melbourne I would assume that there will be a steady, progressive decommission schedule for them to.

I would love to see Vampire, Vendetta and Voyager back in the mix, would have preferred to see the AWD's named as such. But I think it more likely we will see Derwent, Swan, Torrens, Werrego, Bataan along with Darwin, Melbourne, Newcastle.

So there is 8 names and considering I'm particularly biased I would like to see the lead ship and class name be the Tobruk class. Considering the first Tobruk was a Battle class destroyer and her sister ship was Anzac (II). Anzac has a had a class of Frigate bearing its name why shouldn't its replacement class bear the name Tobruk.... Just my opinion, like I said I'm biased.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes, they were expensive although it's a long time ago so I can't remember the exact figures; but I'm not sure if we could have run a 1000 person ship's company through the 90s for a lower cost thant the 'hawks And, it would ahve been politically impossible under the then government. The Lynx of the time was not nearly as capable although it would have fitted the (later) requirement which ended up in the Seasprite acquistion. In many ways the FAA would probably have preferred the Lynx for that; after all they had been dealing with Westlands in its various forms for decades. Really, though, after the OPC was cancelled in 96 or whenever we should have bough more Seahawk series, Foxtrots maybe.

One of the main drivers behind the combat system changes our Seahawk was to enable it to be flown by a single pilot (which also meant that the TACCO in the left hand seat had to know how to at least put it down on the back end safely, an issue in itself); with the direct FMS buy of USN clone Romeos they've presumably gone back to a four person crew which will add to overall through life costs I imagine.

The S-70B has been a pretty good buy overall, though - it's done us proud in a lot of difficult places around the world. I don't think its availability was quite what the RAN would have wished over the years, but then the 16 we bought were really only meant to fly off 6 decks for 20 years not the 14 we had available for a while, and with a service life of nearly 30 years.

The concept of a flight parent squadron which was also the training squadron, which I think generally worked OK, wasn't however as successful as the front line/second line approach we'd used in the past and which they've now adopted for Romeo. A bit of a case of back to the future there.
Agreed that through life costs are as critical, if not more so than initial acquisition costs and that things need to be looked at as holistically as possible to determine the best way forward.

On the crewing side one of the reasons given for cancelling the carrier replacement was to free up resources to increase the number of major surface combatants. This was initially quite a substantial planned increase from the usual dozen to a seventeen plus a dozen or so corvettes to replace the Fremantle class PBs. As the replacement plans for the DDGs and FFGs were delayed numbers decreased from a planned seventeen to sixteen and then to an actually achieved fourteen for a short time before it dropped to twelve with plans for only eleven or possibly even nine, before it was increased to twelve again with the corvettes cancelled back in the mid 90s.

So realistically the reason to make do without a carrier, i.e. to make better use of the manpower so we could have a large fleet of twenty nine odd, guided missile armed, helicopter equipped, destroyers, frigates and corvettes never eventuated. Instead we have twelve majors, two large LHDs and a fleet of twelve submarines planned. There were cuts and savings made that damaged the RANs corporate knowledge and capability, as well as technology inspired reductions in crewing (and operationally inspired increases) but overall it was more a case of priorities and allocation of resources than being unable to afford one capability or another.

Had Melbourne been replaced, allowing at least the Sea kings to remain effective in the ASW role, then the RAN could have standardised on the Lynx (then progressed through Super Lynx and then maybe even to Wildcat) and the Sea king could eventually have been replaced by Merlin, Romeo, or NFR90. A small carrier can actually be cheaper to buy than a frigate and if the extra crew are birdies who would otherwise be deployed on other ships there is no real increase in through life costs. It comes down to the effect, not the way it is obtained, Japan realised this long ago and has been increasing the size and capability of their helicopter command escorts, permitting a reduction in the number and cost of their surface combatant fleet, Australia could have done the same.
 

pussertas

Active Member
Defence Review "The Australaian"

Today, 29th September "The Australian" has a defense supplement.

Not much is new information for readers of this blog.

Cheers,

Chris
:soldier
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A small carrier can actually be cheaper to buy than a frigate and if the extra crew are birdies who would otherwise be deployed on other ships there is no real increase in through life costs.
You don't actually believe that do you? There's some very rose tinted glasses needed for that.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You don't actually believe that do you? There's some very rose tinted glasses needed for that.
It depends entirely on the platform being discussed, for instance the LHDs were substantially cheaper than the AWDs and the SEA 5000 ships will also be more expensive than repeat LHDs, which of course with their size and extensive amphibious capabilities are more expensive than a dedicated carrier of the same size, let alone a smaller one. Now if we were talking about a QE or a Ford then that goes out the window, while a Hyuga, with its high end, destroyer grade, combat system would naturally be more expensive than a frigate.

Realistically what was on offer in the 80s was Hermes which was being offered for a bargain basement price. The advantage that ship had was it could easily have been converted back to a CTOL configuration and operated Melbourne's full air group, the obvious disadvantages were her age and the size of her crew. As either a STOVL, pure helicopter carrier or even (very unlikely) a CTOL ship she could have bridged the RAN AWD capability into the 2000s and possibly significantly added to air defence and strike capability as well.

From the 70s onward there were a multitude of quite affordable (cheaper than frigates) small carrier designs intended to carry a dozen or more helicopters and / or Harriers, with Spain, Italy and Thailand actually deploying them. The UK also built an LPH, Ocean, very affordably, which was basically a smaller, simpler, diesel powered design based on the Invincible, that could very easily have been adapted to a "Harrier Carrier" or just left as an LPH with a secondary ASW capability.

Now had the decision been made in the early 80s it would have been quite easy and affordable to have acquired Hermes and perhaps even ordered one or more small, simple carriers to replace her in the 90s using the then popular "for but not with". The required personnel were already available and the new projects that absorbed the required funding hadn't been signed off yet, it would have been quite easy to have just built a couple of extra FFGs or even build M class Frigates instead of Melbourne, Newcastle and the ANZACs for a total of about twelve frigates and destroyers instead of the planned seventeen.

As I said it was a case of priorities, as during the first Fiji coup Vice Admiral Hudson, chief of navy at the time, made it very clear that a small multi role carrier was vital for that exact type of scenario. It could provide a platform for the Sea Kings for improved fleet ASW as well as being able to swing to an LPH role. This was eventually partially addressed by the acquisition of Bill and Ben which performed well in Timor and led to the eventual buy of Canberra and Adelaide. Not rose tinted glasses, just an observation that the money and resources were available, just used elsewhere.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It depends entirely on the platform being discussed, for instance the LHDs were substantially cheaper than the AWDs and the SEA 5000 ships will also be more expensive than repeat LHDs, which of course with their size and extensive amphibious capabilities are more expensive than a dedicated carrier of the same size, let alone a smaller one.
Cavour is about the same size as Juan Carlos 1 - & considerably more expensive than it. And it doesn't even have catapults or arrestor gear, which would add to the cost of a CTOL carrier. The only complicating factor I can think of in the LHDs is the dock & its stern gate, & I've not seen any suggestions that it adds enough cost to make up for the reduced sensors (because a carrier is built for fighting at sea & needs them, while an LHD doesn't), less powerful propulsion, etc.
 

Stock

Member

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Cavour is about the same size as Juan Carlos 1 - & considerably more expensive than it. And it doesn't even have catapults or arrestor gear, which would add to the cost of a CTOL carrier. The only complicating factor I can think of in the LHDs is the dock & its stern gate, & I've not seen any suggestions that it adds enough cost to make up for the reduced sensors (because a carrier is built for fighting at sea & needs them, while an LHD doesn't), less powerful propulsion, etc.
Not all costs are the same, how much local content is there in sensors and combat systems. While the costs are more, there may be more local spends. By having an aviation capable ship you may not need to modify the rest of the fleet to carry two or more helicopters. I can see how it works for Japan, but with Australia I'm not so sure, our area is just too big.

IMO I think the time for Australia to think about another LHD/carrier is 2017 after we do the ARG thing. After which we will probably make decisions about V-22, LCAC, and a proper amphibious attack helicopter which I do think are on the table and are possible. How much would it cost to modify the existing LHD to support those units and if its even possible because we modified them to maximize troop and equipment lift.

Money and projects already exist looking at replacing the LCM, defensive arming of the LHD's (perhaps a new sensor package). Rather than turfing these existing aspects of the LHD's a new build could be done, incorporating these aspects into the build.

Australia would be really close to US ARG total ship displacement and capability. Its not cheap, but its affordable. I think its worth Australia looking at it rather than spending more than a new cost trying to modify existing ships, to get compromised capability with extreme risk and being devoid of said assets for long periods.

A 3rd LHD would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a dedicated carrier. Cavour or a similar type of ship would require new systems to incorporate into the RAN, have huge personnel, fuel and machinery running costs.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Cavour is about the same size as Juan Carlos 1 - & considerably more expensive than it. And it doesn't even have catapults or arrestor gear, which would add to the cost of a CTOL carrier. The only complicating factor I can think of in the LHDs is the dock & its stern gate, & I've not seen any suggestions that it adds enough cost to make up for the reduced sensors (because a carrier is built for fighting at sea & needs them, while an LHD doesn't), less powerful propulsion, etc.
Cavour has a high end combat system, including 32 (4x8) Sylver VLS cells for Aster 15 and two Oto-melara 76/62 Strales (primarily for CIWS). She also has extensive command and control facilities and has been purpose designed to serve as an LPH as required as well as to transport MBTs and AIFVs, plus / or plant and equipment for HADR. She is more expensive than JCI because she is considerably more capable across a variety of roles, i.e. a high end frigate / destroyer combat system, cruiser level command, control and communication systems, LPH / Commando Carrier and RORO heavy vehicle transport.

Cavour was mentioned (I don't know if that translated to being considered) very early in the requirement that led to the RANs LHDs and could have served quite well in the role. I imagine her cost and the fact that she was more carrier like ranked against her, plus the obvious that she doesn't have a floodable stern dock.

The thing is in the 80s it was Giuseppe Garibaldi that was considered as a carrier replacement and could either have been the full blown version with Aspide, Otomat etc. or more likely a simpler version with Phalanx in place of Dardo. Same as any ship, you fill it up with expensive and capable systems it will cost more, the RAN for instance could easily have specified the full ASMD system for the Canberras, including enhanced 9LV, CAEFAR, Vampir, Mk-41 / ESSM and Phalanx 1B which would have driven the price up significantly.

Steel is cheap and air is free, the real cost of modern warships is the systems they carry and if the primary systems include gear that is already owned, i.e. Melbourne's existing air group, the acquisition cost is lower than if they have to be bought too. If the new platform is more modern and capable than its predecessor then it is entirely possible that through life costs could be lower. With an aviation platform it is entirely conceivable that its aviation support facilities could be superior to the old platform thereby actually making operation and support of the aircraft easier and cheaper. Same applies everywhere, improved infrastructure streamlines operations.
 
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rockitten

Member
Not all costs are the same, how much local content is there in sensors and combat systems. While the costs are more, there may be more local spends. By having an aviation capable ship you may not need to modify the rest of the fleet to carry two or more helicopters. I can see how it works for Japan, but with Australia I'm not so sure, our area is just too big.

IMO I think the time for Australia to think about another LHD/carrier is 2017 after we do the ARG thing. After which we will probably make decisions about V-22, LCAC, and a proper amphibious attack helicopter which I do think are on the table and are possible. How much would it cost to modify the existing LHD to support those units and if its even possible because we modified them to maximize troop and equipment lift.

Money and projects already exist looking at replacing the LCM, defensive arming of the LHD's (perhaps a new sensor package). Rather than turfing these existing aspects of the LHD's a new build could be done, incorporating these aspects into the build.

Australia would be really close to US ARG total ship displacement and capability. Its not cheap, but its affordable. I think its worth Australia looking at it rather than spending more than a new cost trying to modify existing ships, to get compromised capability with extreme risk and being devoid of said assets for long periods.

A 3rd LHD would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a dedicated carrier. Cavour or a similar type of ship would require new systems to incorporate into the RAN, have huge personnel, fuel and machinery running costs.
Well, apart from better aviation capacity, Cavour has a higher top speed, so it can get alone with our combat fleet better than our Phat ships. I don't know which one has a better C4I capacity, but either of them would be suitable for task force flag ship (at least, should be better then our AWD).

The yanks has came up some aerial refueling module for the V-22, We should have a few of those kits if we go for V-22. Even if RAAF really hate the jump jet, at least we can now make them stay atop of out task force a bit longer.

Regarding to Cavour, I had read something about its development, written by an Admiral from Italian navy. It stated that Cavour was initially designed as something similar to Spanish SPS, but throughout the 9 years development, more and more aviation functionality went in, more and more amphibious functionality kicked out. Eventually ended up a light carrier with some RO/RO capability and the stern ramp is what's left of the suppose to be wet dock. May be (just may be), our "3rd LHD" would ended up something similar.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, apart from better aviation capacity, Cavour has a higher top speed, so it can get alone with our combat fleet better than our Phat ships. I don't know which one has a better C4I capacity, but either of them would be suitable for task force flag ship (at least, should be better then our AWD).
Firstly, any talk about a third "carrier" in the RAN for the next 20 odd years is sheer fantasy. This topic has been done to death in this thread on multiple occasions.
Second, there are no questions arising about speed limitations with the LHDs. Their speed is perfectly adequate in our context, the will never be part of a US nuclear CBG where speed is important and for that matter neither will Cavour.
What is important is their capacity to maintain a high speed of advance within an amphibious group which is screened by our escorts which typically need to maintain a screening speed of 3 to 5 knots above the main body SOA which also will include the tankers and LSL normally proceeding at approx 12 - 15 knots
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Firstly, any talk about a third "carrier" in the RAN for the next 20 odd years is sheer fantasy. This topic has been done to death in this thread on multiple occasions.
Second, there are no questions arising about speed limitations with the LHDs. Their speed is perfectly adequate in our context, the will never be part of a US nuclear CBG where speed is important and for that matter neither will Cavour.
What is important is their capacity to maintain a high speed of advance within an amphibious group which is screened by our escorts which typically need to maintain a screening speed of 3 to 5 knots above the main body SOA which also will include the tankers and LSL normally proceeding at approx 12 - 15 knots
Agree 100% and I get frustrated with the 'speed issue'. The Cantabria class AOR has about the same max speed as the LHD, however, the economic cruising speed for most of our ships is about 17 knots.... we are simply not going to operate at a SOA of over 20 knots ..... even if we have a 25 knot carrier.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Cavour has a high end combat system, including 32 (4x8) Sylver VLS cells for Aster 15 and two Oto-melara 76/62 Strales (primarily for CIWS). She also has extensive command and control facilities and has been purpose designed to serve as an LPH as required as well as to transport MBTs and AIFVs, plus / or plant and equipment for HADR. She is more expensive than JCI because she is considerably more capable across a variety of roles, i.e. a high end frigate / destroyer combat system, cruiser level command, control and communication systems, LPH / Commando Carrier and RORO heavy vehicle transport.
The "LPH/Commando Carrier & RORO heavy vehicle transport" abilities aren't exactly expensive. There are two access ramps to the hangar, & if not operating as a carrier can take a rather modest (in proportion to the size of the ship) force of marines, apparently in very basic accommodation. The big differences are in the sensor fit, combat system, C&C facilities & weapons. All except the weapons are pretty normal for a carrier.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Some good news with ASC. Profits are up even with lower revenue, Should go a decent way to shutting up all the naysayers in government and public.

Last years Revenue and profit of $1.02b and $21.9m respectively compared to this years revenue and profit of $800.8m and $26.6m. Not sure if the split will improve the margins or not but by looks of it things will continue to get better.

Good job to the ASC :)

Nocookies | The Australian
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Some good news with ASC. Profits are up even with lower revenue, Should go a decent way to shutting up all the naysayers in government and public.

Last years Revenue and profit of $1.02b and $21.9m respectively compared to this years revenue and profit of $800.8m and $26.6m. Not sure if the split will improve the margins or not but by looks of it things will continue to get better.

Good job to the ASC :)

Nocookies | The Australian
A majority is monopoly money, going from one goverment dept to another, just a book profit.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The "LPH/Commando Carrier & RORO heavy vehicle transport" abilities aren't exactly expensive. There are two access ramps to the hangar, & if not operating as a carrier can take a rather modest (in proportion to the size of the ship) force of marines, apparently in very basic accommodation. The big differences are in the sensor fit, combat system, C&C facilities & weapons. All except the weapons are pretty normal for a carrier.
Your argument was that Cavour disproved my statement because it was more expensive than JCI, my response was that Cavour is anything but a simple carrier, and rather a multi role command platform that happens to be a carrier, an LPH and a vehicle transport.

The Canberras, interesting enough are not just LHDs either, being fitted, like Bill and Ben before them, as high end command and control platforms with a modified frigate combat system, less the VLS and phased array radar. These are very capable joint platforms whose most impressive capabilities are the unseen ones that have nothing to do with the troops, vehicles and helicopters they carry.

IMO either a used or new build carrier acquired in the 80s to replace Melbourne, possibly with a follow on ship in the 90s, acquired instead of the planned extra frigates would have negated the need for Bill and Ben, the Australian Seahawk and the Super Sea Sprite. As the need for the type of command platforms Bill and Ben evolved into, the existence of one or two simple carriers would have made logical platforms for upgrade. Its a very realistic scenario that would, again IMO, have provided greater capability and flexibility within the existing budget.
 
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