Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Stampede

Well-Known Member
The almost "group think" here about Japanese sub being essentially the only choice is concerning.
Whilst I find the case focareful contract to avoid undertakings being reneged on, by whomever wins




You may find interesting Kym Bergmann's
editorial in the ASDR re SEA 1000.

Australian Defence News | Asia Pacific Defence Reporter

Just another opinion on the subject or course.

I guess we are all very curious as to the final result for what is an important project.

Regards S
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The almost "group think" here about Japanese sub being essentially the only choice is concerning.
Nothing of the sort, any of the three can be made to work, eventually. Realistically and rationally two of the designs are vapourware, they do not actually exist, while one of the designs is an evolution of an existing design. Two of the designs will have ITAR, export control and IP issues with the equipment the RAN requires, one does not.

The options we are choosing from are the best of what is left, what has been excluded, due to schedule issues (because of successive governments dithering) includes an evolved Collins and a new ASC design. Besides the Japanese option these two were the only way to avoid the mistakes made, and subsequently, expensively fixed, on the Collins, i.e. trying to scale a very differently sized submarine to fit Australia's requirements.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The almost "group think" here about Japanese sub being essentially the only choice is concerning.
Whilst I find the case for Japanes sub to be strong, I think a German sub as proposed would likely be a suitable solution as well, albeit probably somewhat more risk involved. Germans have been very good at sub building, and sub design, and are most likely able to produce a suitable vessel for our requirments. However, given if is a new design, we would expect significant problems would pop up during the build, that would likely make cost estimates pre build look optomistic.
Obviously there are pros and cons with each proposal.
French proposal to me is much much more problematic.
What I would most like to see is that the decision by government is not skewed by industrial considerations rather than capability considerations. That is why I hope no decision on final platform selection is made before election.
Finally, the Japanese have apparently become much more respectful of their customer than they appeared to be at first when the captains pick was in place. How much that respect lasts once a contract is signed, if they get it, remains to be seen. We should guard against a major change of attitude occuring, and write a very careful contract to avoid undertakings being reneged on, by whomever wins.
It's isn't group think to have a preference based on the obviously superior and actually existing, platform and the only one the US has said they are comfortable allowing the full AN/BYG-1 combat system to be integrated in to...

If we choose other platforms, we will have a future submarine capability, but it won't be with the combat capability we want, or indeed perhaps already have...
 

the road runner

Active Member
This was linked to a post on shipbuilding on Facebook.

https://www.laborherald.com.au/politics/the-payne-ful-truth-about-shipbuilding/[/quote]

Thanks for the Link Volk. It has answered one question i have been trying to get an answer for ,that is.... Did Australia get the IP rights for Collins?...Seems we did.

"was in fact setting us up well for building the future sub in Australia and this was facilitated by the acquisition of the Swedish IP for the Collins, which would help with the extension process."
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The almost "group think" here about Japanese sub being essentially the only choice is concerning.
actually, some of us have been talking about this for the last 8 years - we're not driven by fads or whether its a current news item

I'd argue that you won't find anywhere in here where the arguments for and against could be seen as anything but factual or supported by some personal experiences

me, I'd take japanese or german - I'd run screaming from the room if we selected a french solution - and its been explained repeatedly in here as to why thats the case

edit. I note a few of my other colleagues have succinctly reinforced whats been said prev but now much more compactly

none of their comments are inaccurate in any form.

I'm not the only one in here who'd be happy to dissect arguments for and against any of the proposals.

the irony of course is that the parameters, events and circumstances currently being trotted out to support anything but japanese are visibly and historically similar to arguments that were used to destroy Collins credibility.

ie based on vapourware, based on an upscaled smaller sub, based on promises to keep

ultimately all of us are focused on getting the best capability - and some of us have long memories due to some personal involvement and have no desire to see history repeated
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What many don't realise is the Type 471 design that became the Collins was as much vapour ware in 1989 as the French and German proposals are now. Selecting either european option will be repeating what we did with the Collins were going for the prefered options of a new ASC design or an evolved Collins, both, based on the experience and expertise built through the entire Australian submarine project, would have been less risky and likely less expensive than starting from scratch with French or German concepts.

Neither an ASC design or an evolved Collins is an option now making the MOTS plus evolved Soryu the least risky, likely least expensive option Though almost certain to prove to be a better than than either of the euros, I would not be at all surprised if we regret not doing our own design down the track. This is because when the new subs enter service, irrespective of which design, of where they are built, will have the same sort of teething problems every new class has. This will finally prove to all but the most blinkered, ignorant and reversionary, that the Collins class was a success with the exception of winning the politically and idologically inspired propaganda war.
 

phreeky

Active Member
What confuses me is some of the conflicting statements I see:
- "Exist only 'on paper' versus MOTS/'in the water'"; yet
- "Upscaling and/or changing a sub is not a simple process" (i.e. inc. evolved Soryu)

It sounds to me like making the Soryu into what we need is itself no simple project, yet by some is being sold as otherwise. I can see all solutions hitting some pretty big hurdles, and all having their issues ironed out eventually (with differing time frames) provided the fundamentals of the design is sound and that the right people are involved to do so.

I can see there being a balance that needs to be struck, whereby a solution is available in a time frame by which they're needed (i.e. Collins really need replacing) versus a solution that provides a better platform over the long-term (i.e. a design with future adaptation/capabilities in mind). I guess the other option is don't worry about a long life, just get something sorted with a shorter life and replace them earlier (the model Japan is following?)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What confuses me is some of the conflicting statements I see:
- "Exist only 'on paper' versus MOTS/'in the water'"; yet
- "Upscaling and/or changing a sub is not a simple process" (i.e. inc. evolved Soryu)

It sounds to me like making the Soryu into what we need is itself no simple project, yet by some is being sold as otherwise. I can see all solutions hitting some pretty big hurdles, and all having their issues ironed out eventually (with differing time frames) provided the fundamentals of the design is sound and that the right people are involved to do so.

I can see there being a balance that needs to be struck, whereby a solution is available in a time frame by which they're needed (i.e. Collins really need replacing) versus a solution that provides a better platform over the long-term (i.e. a design with future adaptation/capabilities in mind). I guess the other option is don't worry about a long life, just get something sorted with a shorter life and replace them earlier (the model Japan is following?)
the Oyashio/Soryu's are real large fleet conventionals already of the size that can deal with the energy management reqs to run the combat systems and sensors we need

It doesn't matter how much anyone else talks up the german or french solutions, they are another level of development and integration (and its a whole lot harder for one of them to get through State and or Congress) than the Japanese solution

the japanese life cycle is a legacy of their generational build reqs, its got zero to do with actual boat life
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
What confuses me is some of the conflicting statements I see:
- "Exist only 'on paper' versus MOTS/'in the water'"; yet
- "Upscaling and/or changing a sub is not a simple process" (i.e. inc. evolved Soryu)

It sounds to me like making the Soryu into what we need is itself no simple project, yet by some is being sold as otherwise. I can see all solutions hitting some pretty big hurdles, and all having their issues ironed out eventually (with differing time frames) provided the fundamentals of the design is sound and that the right people are involved to do so.

I can see there being a balance that needs to be struck, whereby a solution is available in a time frame by which they're needed (i.e. Collins really need replacing) versus a solution that provides a better platform over the long-term (i.e. a design with future adaptation/capabilities in mind). I guess the other option is don't worry about a long life, just get something sorted with a shorter life and replace them earlier (the model Japan is following?)
As I understand it, there is no MOTS solution which meets RAN needs, therefore anything selected would need to either be modified to meet RAN requirements, or be designed from the start to fulfill the RAN requirements.

However of the three offerings (French, German, and Japanese) the Soryu-class sub is an in-service design and in terms of size, displacement, and capabilities, fairly similar to what the RAN is looking for.

The Germans do have extensive experience in designing and building, or overseeing foreign construction of conventional submarines. However, this experience involves subs roughly half the displacement that the RAN seems to be looking for. Additionally, RAN subs need to be capable at operating effectively when very far from their bases. It is not just a matter of being capable of long transits, the sub must be able to operate for a period of time once on station, and then be able to return home. In order to accomplish this, a notional "Type 216" sub has been designed which, on paper at least, resembles the current capabilities of a Collins-class sub and other large conventional subs. IIRC what is of concern though, is the Collins-class was basically an enlargement of a Swedish Vastergotland-class sub from the experienced Swedish sub builder, Kockums. As was found out after the Collins-class first entered service, changing the displacement and dimensions impacts how a sub operates and performs. It is not just as simple as increasing the dimensions and adding extra buoyancy. Get the sums wrong and the sub becomes a diving bell, like the Spanish S-80-class sub. Or instead of being a quiet conventional boat, the flow noise could be sub that the sub sounds like an underwater music festival...

As for the French proposal... It might be of roughly the right dimensions and displacement, being based off their Barracuda-class SSN but conventionally powered. However, the first of the SSN's is still being built, with the programme being behind schedule and suffering cost overruns to my knowledge. To change the design from a nuclear to conventionally powered sub would involve significantly reworking the entire vessel, since where displacement would be within the vessel would change. The designers would need to take into account how the vessel's trim could/would change as diesel fuel is consumed during operations, the heat and power management would need to all be re-done, etc. From my POV, in many respects the redesign work would require everything except perhaps the outer hullform to be scrapped. And then there would be the issues with IP firewalls between French and US-sourced kit, etc.

A modified version of a Japanese Soryu-class would of course need to be redone to take into consideration kit the RAN wants which might be different, as well as what kit is required to use RAN sub conops. However, that should require significantly less work, and therefore less risk, than switching from a nuclear reactor/powerplant to a diesel-electric one.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What confuses me is some of the conflicting statements I see:
- "Exist only 'on paper' versus MOTS/'in the water'"; yet
- "Upscaling and/or changing a sub is not a simple process" (i.e. inc. evolved Soryu)

It sounds to me like making the Soryu into what we need is itself no simple project, yet by some is being sold as otherwise. I can see all solutions hitting some pretty big hurdles, and all having their issues ironed out eventually (with differing time frames) provided the fundamentals of the design is sound and that the right people are involved to do so.

I can see there being a balance that needs to be struck, whereby a solution is available in a time frame by which they're needed (i.e. Collins really need replacing) versus a solution that provides a better platform over the long-term (i.e. a design with future adaptation/capabilities in mind). I guess the other option is don't worry about a long life, just get something sorted with a shorter life and replace them earlier (the model Japan is following?)
With the Soryu the proposal is to stretch the evoled version they are developing for the JMSDF, with few changes to internal arrangements,this is as simple as you can possibly get, short of making no changes to suit our requirements. For the German design they are increasing the hull diameter as well as length, which will pretty much completely change the internal arrangements. The French are shortening an SSN and converting it to diesel again completely changing the internal arrangements.

Basically with the Soryu the internal arrangements, equipment, hull structure, stability and acoustics already exist, something none of the other ccontenders can claim.
 

phreeky

Active Member
Basically with the Soryu the internal arrangements, equipment, hull structure, stability and acoustics already exist, something none of the other ccontenders can claim.
Thanks all. I guess it was some confusion that comes with knowing next to nothing about subs, and the simplified terminology (MOTS, 'only on paper', etc) doesn't really explain the differences in the challenges.

I just hope we get a good sub, and do a good enough job of hyping them up to help recruit well for the RAN (and have a good training program in place) to ensure we can actually man them accordingly into the future.
 

Punta74

Member
Trying to get my head around how the delivery of the Subs would in "theory" be done.

Do we keep all Collins in service until the 6th sub in the new class is built, and then slowly replace 1 for 1. So you would have a Mixed fleet for up to 12+ years.

OR

Do we start decommissioning the first Collins once the first of class is operational ? This way will we ever get to "12" boats ? It could be 2050's ??
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Do we start decommissioning the first Collins once the first of class is operational ? This way will we ever get to "12" boats ? It could be 2050's ??
its a through life build - there won't be 12 boats commissioned at once
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Commentators consistently underestimate the ITARS issue when discussing Euro solutions for SEA 1000.
History provides some insight; when combat management systems were being chosen for Collins, the project team preferred the Atlas ISUS (German) CMS but due to pressure being applied by both the US and Ausgov, a US system was chosen as they, the US, were concerned about integration security when joined with US weapons.

Today, we are mandating the AN/BYG CMS, is this because it's the best system for our replacement SM? Probably not, there are other systems, which are less power hungry and as capable. I suggest the reason has absolutely everything to do with ITARS and the RAN is minimising integration and security risk. Nothing in Eurosphere has changed since 1996 in fact it's probably got worse.

IMHO, naturally.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
its a through life build - there won't be 12 boats commissioned at once
Hi gf

Maybe the question is how many boats do we expect on average to be in the water with a 12 boat build.
Most would understand that the Collins class has had a rocky road over the years so the average numbers available has varied over the years. Currently is it three or four out of long term maitenance or refit at the moment? I believe its the best rate of service in the boats history which is a credit to all involved.
From a 12 boat build how many would be in commision and in the water for active service. Is it a rule of three or is a rule of four more applicable for submarines.

Regards S
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
IMHO, naturally.
Just a quick question re HMAS Choules

What is the large structure just forward of the flight deck and behind the two cranes.
It looks like two A frames supporting a large beam extending almost the full width of the ship.
Just curious and would appreciate any feedback.

Regards S
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Commentators consistently underestimate the ITARS issue when discussing Euro solutions for SEA 1000.
History provides some insight; when combat management systems were being chosen for Collins, the project team preferred the Atlas ISUS (German) CMS but due to pressure being applied by both the US and Ausgov, a US system was chosen as they, the US, were concerned about integration security when joined with US weapons.

Today, we are mandating the AN/BYG CMS, is this because it's the best system for our replacement SM? Probably not, there are other systems, which are less power hungry and as capable. I suggest the reason has absolutely everything to do with ITARS and the RAN is minimising integration and security risk. Nothing in Eurosphere has changed since 1996 in fact it's probably got worse.

IMHO, naturally.
exactly.

how do the germans and french offer a solution to the common combat room requirements for Collins, US nuke subs and UK nuke subs when the ITARS and FMS issues surrounding IP firewalls which are a reality (especially for one of them) and for which the US are clearly not amplifying with respect to installing BYG into a Soryu derivative

seriously, the above is but one example of what all these talking heads and "media experts" ignore or have zero appreciation about when they kill trees to have their say in the open media.....

so much of what appears in the press demonstrates almost zero appreciation of the complexities of whats required at the capability level above and beyond the simplistic "lets build martian subs as they're the best" mantra
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just a quick question re HMAS Choules

What is the large structure just forward of the flight deck and behind the two cranes.
It looks like two A frames supporting a large beam extending almost the full width of the ship.
Just curious and would appreciate any feedback.

Regards S
I'm not 100% on this but I read somewhere that the tripods and beams are external reinforcing beams for the decks and hull when fully loaded. Maybe Alexsa has further insight.
I understand they aren't used as lifting beams but in the RFA modified Bays they carry the redirected exhausts and some electronic/FC radomes. I think Cardigan Bay has Phalanx mounts on deck abaft the tripods on each side when deployed to the ME?
 

Alf662

New Member
I'm not 100% on this but I read somewhere that the tripods and beams are external reinforcing beams for the decks and hull when fully loaded. Maybe Alexsa has further insight.
I understand they aren't used as lifting beams but in the RFA modified Bays they carry the redirected exhausts and some electronic/FC radomes. I think Cardigan Bay has Phalanx mounts on deck abaft the tripods on each side when deployed to the ME?
I have another question about HMAS Choules. I read some where that she can only embark LCM8's and the LCM1e's do not fit.

This surprised me as both vessels have similar dimensions (although the LCM1e is 1 meter longer), if correct the only thing I can think of is that the LCM1e has a bigger air draft, or is it a case that the LCM1e's have not been certified to work from the Choules yet.

I have only seen photographs of HMAS Choules working with LCM8's. Is any one in a position to clarify if the LCM1e can be accommodated on board HMAS Choules?
 
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