Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

IIRC ESSM is supposed to be quad packed into one cell therefore 16 cells will give you 64 ESSM' which leaves 32 cells; so 16 LRASM (or what ever replaces Harpoon); and leaves 16 for SM2. That's not a bad load out - double the number of surface missiles and ESSM than what the ANZAC Class is capable of and it gives you 16 SM2, which the ANZAC doesn't have. Plus I believe that the AWD have 48 cells so depending on mission could have same load out as an AWD.

And lets not forget that since the Rudd 2009 DWP the plan has also been to equip the AWD's and Future Frigates (and submarines) with a Tomahawk cruise missile type capability too.

So it does get interesting when you look at the possible combinations and types of weapons that could eventually end up in the AWD's and Future Frigates over their lifetime, and especially if CEC is included and possibly an ABM capability to the AWD's too.

Initial fit out of SM-2 and ESSM, the Government in that same DWP also mentioned SM-6, but I'd assume that SM-6 would probably eventually replace SM-2. Add to that the TLAM type capability, possibly LRASM or JSM to replace Harpoon in the future and lastly SM-3 if an ABM capability was added too.

Another possibility for the anti-submarine focused Future Frigates could also be the latest VLS version of ASROC.

Lots of possibilities and lots of potential combinations, especially if an AWD and Future Frigate were working side by side with a capacity of 96 Strike Length VLS shared between them.

 

[ngatimozart]

Lots of possibilities and lots of potential combinations, especially if an AWD and Future Frigate were working side by side with a capacity of 96 Strike Length VLS shared between them.

That mate is a lot of capability without having to build any more AWDs. Add in the capabilities of CEAFAR and its associated systems then you have something that is possibly as good as, and maybe better than the SPY1D radar on the AWD. According to Wiki each F125 costs €650 million (~AU$1 billion) so that is still cheaper than an AWD.

 

[swerve]

But a basic F125 isn't on offer, isn't wanted, doesn't have CEAFAR, doesn't have a VLS or some of the other things needed for Australia's future frigates & if it was built in Australia would probably cost more even without them.

 

[hairyman]

I believe the S6 at this stage costs $4m each, against S2 $6=700'000, so until the Americans lower the cost of production I doubt if we will be seeing S6 for awhile.

 

[Beam]

Impressive yes, but also a significant redesign from the F-125 to become what they are offering. I also have reservations about the gear box arrangement. they go to a lot of trouble to separate the prime movers but then run the whole through a grouped gear box (aka ANZAC). It heavy and a single point of failure.

In addition it is still only 48 cells. Depending on what we put in these cells there is certainly a case for more if only to provide additional shots for the
AWD (if we ever get CES)

I believe that the 48 cells in the presentation was due to the initial requirements released by Gov was for 48. I read somewhere (and now can't find the link) that the MEKO 400 design was expandable to 64 cells.

Also, the design pictured showed eight harpoons in canisters. By the time this design would be commissioned I would think it likely that the RAN may have the Kongsberg NSM would be fitted - since Aus is partly funding the development - which can fit into a Mk41, unlike the harpoon. (It can also fit into the F35 internal bays). The removal of these canisters shold give more room for additional VLS.

 

[StingrayOZ]

I believe the S6 at this stage costs $4m each, against S2 $6=700'000, so until the Americans lower the cost of production I doubt if we will be seeing S6 for awhile.

I think its quite likely we will get SM-6. It provides long range, self guided (OTH) and terminal BMD. Its extremely capable and has already been flagged as something we want.

However, I would expect our initial purchase to be fairly small. ~16 missiles. Which will be deployed on what ever we are putting into harms way. ESSM/SM-2 will make the bulk of any load for the foreseeable future.

Obviously with ESSM, SM-2, SM-6, Tomahawk, NSM thats quite a lot of missile types, and to be useful you would want a number of each. IMO for future growth it would be worth while to have more cells or space and weight allocated for more cells.

I would think the F-105 hull variant would be by far the cheapest. We are already tooled up and ready to make them.

 

[John Newman]

I would think the F-105 hull variant would be by far the cheapest. We are already tooled up and ready to make them.

Eighteen months ago the (then) Def Min did announce that the Government was investing approx. $80m into a design study to see if the AWD could be evolved into the Future Frigate, since then nothing has been said (publically at least) on how that is proceeding.

The last media report I saw in Janes (if that can be believed of course), was that an evolved AWD had been dropped, or at least was out of favour.

Obviously until details of the Future Frigate CEP are given, we won't know who's in or who's out.

But if the Government is going to stick to a MOTS solution (realistically an Evolved MOTS solution), then, to me at least, that points to three designs, an evolved F-105/AWD, the French (or Italian?) FREMM and the Meko A-400 evolution of the F-125.

The UK Type 26? Probably won't be ready in time to be considered.

 

[ASSAIL]

Obviously until details of the Future Frigate CEP are given, we won't know who's in or who's out.

But if the Government is going to stick to a MOTS solution (realistically an Evolved MOTS solution), then, to me at least, that points to three designs, an evolved F-105/AWD, the French (or Italian?) FREMM and the Meko A-400 evolution of the F-125.
The UK Type 26? Probably won't be ready in time to be considered.

I would support that position although I suspect that DoD is a bit gunshy at the thought of acquiring another French derived platform/systems. (As an apropos to that, I think DCNS has no chance for SEA 1000.)
The only caveat would relate to some comments by the head of DoD who suggested that a 7,000 tonne future frigate was way too extravagant and beyond the budget (I haven't heard much follow up on those comments from months ago - The Australian 9th May 2015, sorry can't link).
If that is a position pursued, the evolved F 105 would be in pole position.

 

[John Newman]

I would support that position although I suspect that DoD is a bit gunshy at the thought of acquiring another French derived platform/systems. (As an apropos to that, I think DCNS has no chance for SEA 1000.)
The only caveat would relate to some comments by the head of DoD who suggested that a 7,000 tonne future frigate was way too extravagant and beyond the budget (I haven't heard much follow up on those comments from months ago - The Australian 9th May 2015, sorry can't link).
If that is a position pursued, the evolved F 105 would be in pole position.

In any competition there is always one or two bidders that in reality are there just to make up the numbers, but of course you have to be in it to win it.

Go back a bit in time to the AWD project, the Spanish ship was the alternative back up design behind the Baby Bourke, and look what happened there!!!

All that aside, like you, you would think the evolved AWD would be in the box seat, but according to some reports in recent months (if true), then that's not the case. And yes I do remember that report in the Australian you were talking about too.

And again like you, I can't see a French winner in either the Future Frigate or Submarine competitions, but as we know, stranger things can happen.


Going out on a limb here, my picks for the various competitions:

* SEA 1000 - Soryu - And of course with strong support from the US too, and the potential of an ongoing joint submarine operation and development program for many decades to come.

* SEA 5000 - Meko A400 - If the evolved F105 is out of favour (as reported), then I think that puts the Meko in the box seat above the FREMM, appears to be a very capable ship with possibly a lot of growth potential in the years to come.

* SEA 1180 - Damen OPV (or OPV2) 1800 - 83m, 1890t, flight deck and hangar in the design capable of taking up to MRH-90 aircraft (not that I expect these ships to have a helicopter embarked regularly, most likely a UAV, mission deck below the flight deck to be able to perform the various objectives of SEA 1180, etc, etc.

* SEA 1654 - DSME/BMT Aegir AOR - Bit of splitting hairs here, either design will probably do the job very well, but I do like the idea that DSME is currently building, what appears, a ship of the same configuration for Norway, plus of course the larger UK class of ships too, if the price from S Korea was cheap enough, an eventual 3rd AOR would be good too.

* Pacific Patrol Boat Replacement - The Cairns based bid, based on a Damen design (I've read the design includes Damens 'Sea Axe' bow design) and ongoing support is in Cairns too - Makes sense to me with Cairns being on the doorstep of the Pacific Nations that would use these boats (the remaining contender is Austal).


Well there you go, my five predictions, time will tell how right (or wrong), I am!!!!

 

[hairyman]

I would have to agree with John Newman"s choices here> I would hope that there is a strong Australian input into the Soryu design for the RAN

 

[John Newman]

I would have to agree with John Newman"s choices here> I would hope that there is a strong Australian input into the Soryu design for the RAN

Mate, If I'm right, you can buy me a drink or two or five or so, if we are wrong, I can share the blame, it's your fault, ok??

Seriously, if I knew, I'd be buying shares in those companies and buying a ticket in next week's lotto too!

Just my educated, or mostly uneducated, guess, take your pick.

Anyway, that's just what my logic tells me, doesn't mean my logic is correct, but those choices seem reasonable to me, we could do worse!!

 

[ASSAIL]

Going out on a limb here, my picks for the various competitions:

* SEA 1000 - Soryu - And of course with strong support from the US too, and the potential of an ongoing joint submarine operation and development program for many decades to come.

* SEA 5000 - Meko A400 - If the evolved F105 is out of favour (as reported), then I think that puts the Meko in the box seat above the FREMM, appears to be a very capable ship with possibly a lot of growth potential in the years to come.

* SEA 1180 - Damen OPV (or OPV2) 1800 - 83m, 1890t, flight deck and hangar in the design capable of taking up to MRH-90 aircraft (not that I expect these ships to have a helicopter embarked regularly, most likely a UAV, mission deck below the flight deck to be able to perform the various objectives of SEA 1180, etc, etc.

* SEA 1654 - DSME/BMT Aegir AOR - Bit of splitting hairs here, either design will probably do the job very well, but I do like the idea that DSME is currently building, what appears, a ship of the same configuration for Norway, plus of course the larger UK class of ships too, if the price from S Korea was cheap enough, an eventual 3rd AOR would be good too.

* Pacific Patrol Boat Replacement - The Cairns based bid, based on a Damen design (I've read the design includes Damens 'Sea Axe' bow design) and ongoing support is in Cairns too - Makes sense to me with Cairns being on the doorstep of the Pacific Nations that would use these boats (the remaining contender is Austal).


Well there you go, my five predictions, time will tell how right (or wrong), I am!!!!

It's too hard to second guess every nuance of the selection process because, as we have seen over decades that the best for the RAN is often superseded by political,expediency.

I would like to agree with your selections and especially I'd like to see 6 of the OPVs given the 6 guns ex the FFGs. This would give then greater grunt and allow them to be deployed for anti piracy duties in order to take the load off our larger escorts who's numbers will always be constrained by budgetary pressures. Its a not so subtle way of increasing escort numbers when not increasing escort numbers

 

[rand0m]

And 6 x Damen LST120 or 100's to go with

 

[40 deg south]

I would have to agree with John Newman"s choices here> I would hope that there is a strong Australian input into the Soryu design for the RAN

Yep, I also think John has come up with a list of very credible choices. Now, how can we get him elected DefMin?

One additional point on SEA 1654 - NZ is also considering a shortlist of two, being the BMT/DSME Aegir and an unspecified Hyundai design. The Aegir would give a high degree of trans-Tasman commonality if both countries choose it, for what that is worth.

An NZ decision is expected (but not guaranteed) in the first quarter of this year - it would be interesting to know what discussions have taken place between the respective purchasing teams.

 

[40 deg south]

* SEA 5000 - Meko A400 - If the evolved F105 is out of favour (as reported), then I think that puts the Meko in the box seat above the FREMM, appears to be a very capable ship with possibly a lot of growth potential in the years to come.

One query though - it the MEKO A400 really a more developed design than the Type 26? Although T26 keeps being delayed, there has been a steady stream of BAE selections/orders for various sub-system suppliers. That makes me think the design must be very close to being finalised. Is the MEKO 400 in a similar position - I know very little about it?

 

[alexsa]

Eighteen months ago the (then) Def Min did announce that the Government was investing approx. $80m into a design study to see if the AWD could be evolved into the Future Frigate, since then nothing has been said (publically at least) on how that is proceeding.

The last media report I saw in Janes (if that can be believed of course), was that an evolved AWD had been dropped, or at least was out of favour.

Obviously until details of the Future Frigate CEP are given, we won't know who's in or who's out.

But if the Government is going to stick to a MOTS solution (realistically an Evolved MOTS solution), then, to me at least, that points to three designs, an evolved F-105/AWD, the French (or Italian?) FREMM and the Meko A-400 evolution of the F-125.

The UK Type 26? Probably won't be ready in time to be considered.

I would not write an evolution of the F105 hull off just yet noting Navantia have displayed a 'future frigate' version of the the F105 last year. This option has not been formally ruled out by defence and there is some suggestion it is still firmly in the race. There are some significant benifits to continuing wiht the current hull form in getting this project up and running for a first Steel cut in 4 years.

 

[the road runner]

One query though - it the MEKO A400 really a more developed design than the Type 26? Although T26 keeps being delayed, there has been a steady stream of BAE selections/orders for various sub-system suppliers. That makes me think the design must be very close to being finalised. Is the MEKO 400 in a similar position - I know very little about it?

The A400/ will be pitched from the F125 that was launched for the German Navy in November of 2014 but will be handed over some time in 2016.

The design is a modular one so we can mix and match systems and weapons to suit our needs.

https://www.aspi.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/26503/Kamerman-The-German-experience-slides.pdf

 

[hauritz]

What direction will Spain be taking with the F-110?

If they opt for an evolved F-105 then Australia might be interested in going down that track as well.

 

[Joe Black]

What direction will Spain be taking with the F-110?

If they opt for an evolved F-105 then Australia might be interested in going down that track as well.

One of the latest CG rendering for F110 can be seen here:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/f110-image03.jpg
and
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/f110-line1.gif

The hull looks somewhat evolved from the F105, a little more LO design incorporated, or so it seems.

 

[Flexson]

Yep, I also think John has come up with a list of very credible choices. Now, how can we get him elected DefMin?

One additional point on SEA 1654 - NZ is also considering a shortlist of two, being the BMT/DSME Aegir and an unspecified Hyundai design. The Aegir would give a high degree of trans-Tasman commonality if both countries choose it, for what that is worth.

An NZ decision is expected (but not guaranteed) in the first quarter of this year - it would be interesting to know what discussions have taken place between the respective purchasing teams.

I agree with John, I scribbled the exact same list in my note pad last year before the RAP.

However speaking to a Captain who had attended one of the, basically, round table discussions on the 2 options for Sea 1654 said that while either would be a huge advance on the capabilities of Success and Sirius on paper the Cantabria derivative seems to be ahead. Other factors will surely influence the outcome (Time, Cost, Strategic Relationships etc).