Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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vonnoobie

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TKMS and I would imagine Japan would adhere to a fixed price. Japan isn't offering to build us submarines to chase a profit. They are doing it for geo-strategic reasons. Of the 3 I would imagine japan has a pretty good idea of the cost because they are actually building and operating these types of submarines.
I'd imagine both have a pretty good idea, TKMS is a solid business as such not really in the habit of guaranteeing a fixed price contract knowing that the cost would blow out.

In regards to Japan, It would be in there best interest to expand the number of submarines based on 'x' class as it can either create back up supply chain's or can create more production on existing ones to lower the unit cost of certain products making it cheaper again for all involved. There are benefits to be attained out side of the purely geo-political aspect.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Even if that means the other services are hamstrung and aren't effectively equipped and prepared for the future? I fail to see how the defence of the nation should be prejudiced just so a couple of thousand South Australians can have a job. We can have a strong Navy without Australian shipbuilding. The question is can we have a strong Australian Defence Force WITH Australian shipbuilding? It's a zero sum game afterall - ever dollar spent subsiding an industry that will forever be entirely reliant on government orders is a dollar less being spent on actual defence capabilities.

I'm all for Australian shipbuilding (why wouldn't I be?) but not at the cost of cannibalising the rest of the ADF to do so.
The local submarine build grew out of the success of local modernisations and upgrades of the Oberon class, which in turn grew out of local sustainment. It was about capability, cost and value for money but due to politically motivated spin and parochial rent seeking it has become about jobs.

Australia developed a local sustainment capability for cost and availability reasons as returning the boats to the UK for work was expensive and time consuming. The RANs differing needs to the RNs in relation to combat systems upgrades led to a highly successful local upgrade program that, among other things, incorporated Mk-48 torpedoes and Harpoon missiles, creating arguably the most effective and capable Oberon class submarines and one of the most capable conventional submarines of the time.

The success of the Oberon upgrades led to the next logical step of full local construction for the replacement class as Australian industry and defence project management had mastered the hardest parts. Contrary to the rhetoric and ill-informed opinion, the local build was a success, there were problems but no more than those encountered on similar projects and all were remedied. The major single issue was the combat system and the government were advised of, but chose to ignore the major non-conformances.

The issue since completion of the build has been the politicization of the project, including the nationalisation of ASC which coincided with the restructure and bureaucracitisation of defence procurement and project management. Suddenly no one in government was accountable and the major industry participant was government owned and subject to the whims of the finance minister. Professional advice was ignored, needed work was deferred or cancelled while money was spent on 'sexy' upgrades, such as heavy weight torpedoes and replacement combat system. Any disputes or disagreements between DMO and ASC were settled by sacking/replacing ASC executives with more compliant individuals and making a couple of dozen experienced technical people redundant in the name of efficiency. When the predicted performance issues manifested in the fleet it was automatically ASCs fault, there would be a panic spend to remediate the situation, throwing money and expensive contractors at the problem, an enquiry would be launched, its findings (unless already scripted) would be ignored sand there would be another new broom and more redundancies.

The end result of all of that is the situation we have now, we wasted billions (not just on submarines) by ignoring experts and having to remedy the very issues the experts warned against. These experts, or their successors, are blamed for the results of budgetary decisions, made for political reasons by politicians and senior public servants in PM&C and Finance, and far more is spent in remediation than it would have cost to have done it properly in the first place.

IMO its not about stripping money from other capabilities to create and support jobs in an inefficient, ineffective, uncompetitive industry, it's about spending enough upfront to guarantee and strategically necessary industry can perform efficiently, effectively and competitively can get it right without having to strip resources from elsewhere to rectify issues down the track.

The reason money is being taken from LAND 400 is not that jobs need to be created in SA, but because successive governments failed to do the minimum required to maintain required capabilities from the late 90s. Suitable replacements for the DDGs were not ordered in a timely manner, the FFG upgrade was poorly conceived and executed, the Armidale Class Patrol Boats were not capable of fulfilling their required role, nor durable enough to last for their planned service life and the various fat ships were not adequately maintained.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
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various fat ships were not adequately maintained.
A capability lost with the DOA doctrine, HMAS Sydney(L134) should have been replaced with a pair of Anchorage-class LPD in the late 1970's(and now being replaced by Canberra LHD), HMAS Melbourne(R21) should have been replaced by a new build Invincible Class which should have commissioned about 84/5 (replaced by a pair of new build modified Izumo-class in 2020 )
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A capability lost with the DOA doctrine, HMAS Sydney(L134) should have been replaced with a pair of Anchorage-class LPD in the late 1970's(and now being replaced by Canberra LHD), HMAS Melbourne(R21) should have been replaced by a new build Invincible Class which should have commissioned about 84/5 (replaced by a pair of new build modified Izumo-class in 2020 )
Not even going back that far, just look at the mid to late 90s and the decision to upgrade the FFGs instead of replacing the DDGs, this saw the RAN having to make do without a proper air defence (3D radar, fighter control, multiple channels of firecontrol) for over a decade. They not only knew the upgraded FFGs would be inferior to the DDGs in key capabilities they rejected interim solutions of NTU Kidds and early block Ticonderogas in favour of a make work project to help them sell ADI.

The fact that ADI / Thales screwed FFGUP so badly that we only got four upgraded ships instead of six and these were late as well as needing waivers for planned capabilities just makes the initial faulty thinking even worse. Just imagine if the RAAF had a mixed force of Mirage F-1 and Phantoms, retired the phantoms without replacement, even though the US offered us F-14/15/18 at give away prices as an interim. The government decided to proceed with an upgrade of the Mirage instead as an interim until the F-35 becomes available but the contractor screws up the upgrade and two thirds of the Mirages have to be retired early. Maybe instead of buying the Leopards the army upgraded the Centurions and supplemented them with Stingrays, the Cents were then retired in the late 90s and the Stingrays upgraded, even though we were offered Abrams, Leo 2s and Challengers at give away prices. The Stingray upgrade was screwed up and only part of the fleet was upgraded.

Get the picture, what happened to the RANs core capabilities in the 90s would have been unimaginable for the Army or RAAF and that's not counting the loss of the carrier capability. Thinking the navy has done well or better than the other services because they got eight new frigates, and retained four of six older ones, misses the point entirety, these ships delivered less over all capability than the original mix of DDG, FFG. Counting an unmodernised ANZAC as equivalent to an FFG is like calling a LAV a tank, rating an FFG even an upgraded one as equivalent to a DDG would be like calling a Bushmaster or an armoured Landrover a tank, then we could always call the Hawks fighters and C-17s bombers.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Get the picture, what happened to the RANs core capabilities in the 90s would have been unimaginable for the Army or RAAF and that's not counting the loss of the carrier capability. Thinking the navy has done well or better than the other services because they got eight new frigates, and retained four of six older ones, misses the point entirety, these ships delivered less over all capability than the original mix of DDG, FFG. Counting an unmodernised ANZAC as equivalent to an FFG is like calling a LAV a tank, rating an FFG even an upgraded one as equivalent to a DDG would be like calling a Bushmaster or an armoured Landrover a tank, then we could always call the Hawks fighters and C-17s bombers.
Governments all, emasculated the navy for over 20 years, so much co that it became a habit. They not only neglected its materiel, they also decimated its engineering professionalism until virtually all organic ability to correct defects disappeared.
The terrible state of the fleet has only been recognised and action taken after the near disasters with the supply and amphibious fleets ceased to function effectively.

Any criticism of navy receiving "extra" funding at the expense of the other services must be tempered with these facts.

My wish would be to see the ships in service, maintained by professionally trained uniforms because we know where the obsession with outsourcing has led us.
I think Rizzo has the RAN on the right trajectory.
 

rand0m

Member
A simple and probably very stupid question.

Why don't we simply build the subs overseas if it's going to save us a huge amount of money and reinvest the savings into locally building 12 - 20 Damen OPV 2400 & 6 Damen LST120's?

We then keep local jobs, mitigate risk with the subs, save money, end up with 3 classes of top notch ships/subs!
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A simple and probably very stupid question.

Why don't we simply build the subs overseas if it's going to save us a huge amount of money and reinvest the savings into locally building 12 - 20 Damen OPV 2400 & 6 Damen LST120's?

We then keep local jobs, mitigate risk with the subs, save money, end up with 3 classes of top notch ships/subs!
Because build costs are only a fraction of through life costs and now with the dollar dropping back to historical levels it is not necessarily that much cheaper to build overseas.
 

protoplasm

Active Member
A simple and probably very stupid question.

Why don't we simply build the subs overseas if it's going to save us a huge amount of money and reinvest the savings into locally building 12 - 20 Damen OPV 2400 & 6 Damen LST120's?

We then keep local jobs, mitigate risk with the subs, save money, end up with 3 classes of top notch ships/subs!
The other issue is that you have to maintain the sub afterwards, if you don't build them you still have to build up the entire knowledge base of how they were built so that you can maintain and refit them, the cost of doing that usually means you may as well have built them. Overseas build only makes sense if you are going to completely offshore all maintenance and refit as well. That would be an unacceptable strategic risk.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
. Overseas build only makes sense if you are going to completely offshore all maintenance and refit as well. That would be an unacceptable strategic risk.
Singapore had their submarine force built overseas, do they go back for their midlife refit?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Singapore had their submarine force built overseas, do they go back for their midlife refit?
Australia has a submarine capability for both build and sustainment that is an expensive and hard won strategic investment.
The RAN has a record of submarine operations going back 100 years and a sustainment record going back 50 years when the Oberons were acquired.

These investments are not about to be lost although the delays for new builds puts them under immense strain.

Singapore has no such history yet it is an advanced manufacturing economy. I don't know whether they will complete deep cycle maintenance in the future but I suspect they will but for now the expertise of the manufacturer is probably probably gives them the best result.
Remember that the Singapore Armed Forces only began naval operations as an independent force circa 1967. I was a room mate of the very first intake of officers (4) trained in Australia starting early 1968
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Australia has a submarine capability for both build and sustainment that is an expensive and hard won strategic investment.
The RAN has a record of submarine operations going back 100 years and a sustainment record going back 50 years when the Oberons were acquired.

These investments are not about to be lost although the delays for new builds puts them under immense strain.

Singapore has no such history yet it is an advanced manufacturing economy. I don't know whether they will complete deep cycle maintenance in the future but I suspect they will but for now the expertise of the manufacturer is probably probably gives them the best result.
Remember that the Singapore Armed Forces only began naval operations as an independent force circa 1967. I was a room mate of the very first intake of officers (4) trained in Australia starting early 1968
Yep understand for the need to keep our strategic sustainment capabilty, I guess this is the part of the possabile German bid and maintenance hub
 

koala

Member
I have been wondering how our hospital wards and operating theatres in the LHD's have been going during the work up trials?
I would imagine that this would be a very specialised and complicated task within itself, considering the reported state of the art medical facility's.

Could anyone in the know comment on this?
 

hairyman

Active Member
Naval helicopters. I gather that the Seahawk is considered to be the ideal helicopter for the RAN. But with 24 ordered is it enough? We will have 8 or 9 Anzac replacement frigates, the three AWD's, 2 x LHD, the Bay class, all requiring at least one helicopter. I note that two helicopters per ship are the way to go now, so I would imagine the two LHD's would have at least two per ship. So is 24 a big enough number to cover the needs of the RAN?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Naval helicopters. I gather that the Seahawk is considered to be the ideal helicopter for the RAN. But with 24 ordered is it enough? We will have 8 or 9 Anzac replacement frigates, the three AWD's, 2 x LHD, the Bay class, all requiring at least one helicopter. I note that two helicopters per ship are the way to go now, so I would imagine the two LHD's would have at least two per ship. So is 24 a big enough number to cover the needs of the RAN?
The Romeos are combat helps and would normally be deployed to the operational DDGs/FFHs
The amphibious ships would have a mixture of MRH 90 Taipans and Army Aviation assets.
24 units should be enough unless the destroyer/frigate numbers move upwards.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Naval helicopters. I gather that the Seahawk is considered to be the ideal helicopter for the RAN. But with 24 ordered is it enough? We will have 8 or 9 Anzac replacement frigates, the three AWD's, 2 x LHD, the Bay class, all requiring at least one helicopter. I note that two helicopters per ship are the way to go now, so I would imagine the two LHD's would have at least two per ship. So is 24 a big enough number to cover the needs of the RAN?
Neither the LHD nor Choules will regularly embark an MH-60R. Largely because there is no point - it only has one spare seat and no internal room, so is pretty useless for utility tasks. The amphibs will only normally embark MRH-90s, generally just the one (plus whatever helos the Army bring to the party, obviously).

The AWDs only have one hanger, and in the ships with two hangers you are more likely in the future to see the second hanger used for things like UAS rather than a second helo.

I'm sure you could make the argument we won't have enough MH-60s, but you can make that argument about everything.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Naval helicopters. I gather that the Seahawk is considered to be the ideal helicopter for the RAN. But with 24 ordered is it enough? We will have 8 or 9 Anzac replacement frigates, the three AWD's, 2 x LHD, the Bay class, all requiring at least one helicopter. I note that two helicopters per ship are the way to go now, so I would imagine the two LHD's would have at least two per ship. So is 24 a big enough number to cover the needs of the RAN?
The 24 Seahawks were just intended for Australia's destroyer and Frigate fleets.

I see a need for additional helicopters to cover the OPV fleet. These would realistically be small ship helicopters. Perhaps the navy should look at acquiring something like the EC135 or additional Bell 429s to cover this requirement.

Of course we could have several different classes of OPV ... maybe a hi-lo mix. One ship would be very basic. It will be a direct replacement for the Armidales. No multi mission bays, no support for aviation other than a landing platform ... just a very basic hull. The other would be a more capable ship. It could be configured for various missions, have a hanger and workshop and be capable of operating helicopters up to Seahawk size or bigger.

The LHDs are joint ships that depend on army assets ... but maybe the RAN should find additional tasks for these ships. That being the case a couple of extra flights of Seahawks could be justified and the Canberra's could operate as ASW helicopter carriers.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Of course we could have several different classes of OPV ... maybe a hi-lo mix.
God, I hope not. The idea of proliferating classes just so that we can try one of these and two of those and a soupcon of something else is anathema to anyone trying to provide trained crews, spare parts, sustainment and so on. If there *must* be a low mix vessel, let customs/border force/fisheries own and operate it.

If we need OPVs with swing capacity to do he rest, buy ships with the ability to do that, either using mission bays, or by fitting weapons/equipment/electronics as required. Sort of like the original OPV concept of a hull chosen to provide OPV/minehunting and oceanographic capability on an essentially swappable hull and machinery.

oldsig127
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The LHDs are joint ships that depend on army assets ... but maybe the RAN should find additional tasks for these ships. That being the case a couple of extra flights of Seahawks could be justified and the Canberra's could operate as ASW helicopter carriers.
When? I suppose this happens in the 50 weeks of the year that they aren't on a joint exercise with the Army?

Bear in mind that the public reasons given for NOT getting F-35B may have been related to an exaggerated list of physical shortcomings, but the MAIN reason was that they are there to be LHDs, and not to be aircraft carriers, antisubmarine carriers or anything else.

If that isn't enough to give you a thrill, convince the public to pay for a real one

oldsig127
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I'd wager that 24 is a good amount, It is a 50% increase over past numbers (16). I don't think there has ever been an issue embarking a single Seahawk per a ship before so I don't see it being an issue going into the Hobarts and future frigates, Allowing 1 per each frigate and destroyer still leaves 12 for training and use on the Choules and LHD's.

Number's wise we are going to be in a better spot then ever before so I don't see any real issue. Did use to be that we had 16 to operate from 14 ships with aviation capacity for 20, Into the future we will have 24 to operate from 12 frigates/destroyers with aviation capacity of 21 at best.
 

Alf662

New Member
I'd wager that 24 is a good amount, It is a 50% increase over past numbers (16). I don't think there has ever been an issue embarking a single Seahawk per a ship before so I don't see it being an issue going into the Hobarts and future frigates, Allowing 1 per each frigate and destroyer still leaves 12 for training and use on the Choules and LHD's.

Number's wise we are going to be in a better spot then ever before so I don't see any real issue. Did use to be that we had 16 to operate from 14 ships with aviation capacity for 20, Into the future we will have 24 to operate from 12 frigates/destroyers with aviation capacity of 21 at best.
I agree with this Vonnoobie, but with the proposed OPV's of SEA1180 (IIRC) we will have between 10 and 20 additional hulls capable of carrying either MRH90 or Seahawks as well as any UAV's.

As the number of OPV's increases the number of air frames may be insufficient and the assets on hand get worked harder than originally intended. This scenario could create a requirement for a modest increase in both types of helicopters to help cover operational requirements.
 
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