Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Alf662]

Looks like an upgrade to HMAS Stirling is being questioned.

Parliament considers $360m HMAS Stirling upgrade, questions future US naval presence - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I do not know much about HMAS Stirling, but I am surprised that very few upgrades have been carried out since it was originally built. If the infrastructure is at the end of its life then it needs to be replaced and upgraded to reflect the requirements of the current fleet.

What I do not understand is what it has to do with the US Navy. May be some one can enlighten me

 

[John Fedup]

My understanding, and I'm sure gf will correct me if I'm wrong, Warren King was a 20 year navy man, a WEO or weapons engineering officer who specialised in combat systems, moving into private industry for another 20 years, before finally joining DMO and technically becoming a defence bureaucrat. He is far far more than a than a senior public (civil) servant.

Nice to see someone in a position who actually knows stuff. Could use people like him here.

 

[t68]

Looks like an upgrade to HMAS Stirling is being questioned.

Parliament considers $360m HMAS Stirling upgrade, questions future US naval presence - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

I do not know much about HMAS Stirling, but I am surprised that very few upgrades have been carried out since it was originally built. If the infrastructure is at the end of its life then it needs to be replaced and upgraded to reflect the requirements of the current fleet.

What I do not understand is what it has to do with the US Navy. May be some one can enlighten me

From what I can gather its more to do with long term infrastructure and on site hotel connectivity, USN are good for short stays but we don't have the right infrastructure for long stays

 

[pussertas]

Hi GF

Is it technically feasable to extend the Collins class submarine to get to the original clean sheet design or have we past the point of no return and have to take on of the overseas options, and how long extra would they still have to serve and would we be better off $$ wise?

Greetings GF

AFAIK The Collins class achieved over over 70% Australian content. All foreign design yards have a duty to use as much of their counties materials as possible.
I can foretell whichever nation successfully wins the tender as demanding that specialist equipment, like steels, be sourced from their own country.

Unless a tender process is written into the successful bider's contract it will be too easy for the successful tenderer to claim 'you do not have the skill to do that locally' With great regret they will then booster their own economy by importing. :daz

 

[Volkodav]

Greetings GF

AFAIK The Collins class achieved over over 70% Australian content. All foreign design yards have a duty to use as much of their counties materials as possible.
I can foretell whichever nation successfully wins the tender as demanding that specialist equipment, like steels, be sourced from their own country.

Unless a tender process is written into the successful bider's contract it will be too easy for the successful tenderer to claim 'you do not have the skill to do that locally' With great regret they will then booster their own economy by importing. :daz

Probably the biggest single screw up with the Collins class design was the decision to use Hedamoras against the wishes of the RAN and ASC (who wanted MTUs) because Kockums insisted on them, claiming that they were the best option, had a great relationship with the Swedish navy, procurement organisation and Kockums themselves. All well and good, except once the Australian contract for Hedamoras was finalised, Kockums announced the selection of MTUs for the new Swedish subs, Australia takes a hit to support a Swedish company their own navy is quite happy to replace!

 

[t68]

Probably the biggest single screw up with the Collins class design was the decision to use Hedamoras against the wishes of the RAN and ASC (who wanted MTUs) because Kockums insisted on them, claiming that they were the best option, had a great relationship with the Swedish navy, procurement organisation and Kockums themselves. All well and good, except once the Australian contract for Hedamoras was finalised, Kockums announced the selection of MTUs for the new Swedish subs, Australia takes a hit to support a Swedish company their own navy is quite happy to replace!

If memory serves correct isn't the propolsion one of the main reasons we want the Japanese submarine, any idea what the Germans and the French proposed for the back end of there bids?

 

[John Fedup]

If memory serves correct isn't the propolsion one of the main reasons we want the Japanese submarine, any idea what the Germans and the French proposed for the back end of there bids?

I beleive the Oct 2015 issue of Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter has an article on subs which highlights the German propulsion option. There is some info on the French offering as well.

 

[rockitten]

I beleive the Oct 2015 issue of Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter has an article on subs which highlights the German propulsion option. There is some info on the French offering as well.

Well, in that article, most the info for the French and Japanese offering are mostly referenced based on the existing design. Donno how the truth will turn out.

One thing puzzle me though, is it really that practical to convert a SSN into a SSK? Yes, you can keep the same pm motor and the pump jet, but how the battery's capacity and how frequent (and how fast) that design has to snorkel?

By the way, if my memory serve me correctly, the Diesel engine on Soryu are licenced built MAN engines? How good/bad it is and why media referred that a French engines??

 

[John Fedup]

Well, in that article, most the info for the French and Japanese offering are mostly referenced based on the existing design. Donno how the truth will turn out.

One thing puzzle me though, is it really that practical to convert a SSN into a SSK? Yes, you can keep the same pm motor and the pump jet, but how the battery's capacity and how frequent (and how fast) that design has to snorkel?

By the way, if my memory serve me correctly, the Diesel engine on Soryu are licenced built MAN engines? How good/bad it is and why media referred that a French engines??

IIRC, only the Germans were willing to offer the latest information about specifications for this article. MAN licenses their 2-cycle diesel technology for large ship engines (Japan and Korea). Don't know about their medium speed diesel engine technology.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I would find it odd if the the japanese are using any french drivetrain - they see the germans as more reliable and stable partners when it comes to that kind of tech issue

 

[StingrayOZ]

From what I recall the engines were all fairly similar in size and output.

I did find the number of engines interesting:

• 216 going with 3 like collins. It would offer collins like transit speed. However the engines would no doubt be more reliable.
• Soryu has 2 currently (hence plenty of issues with transits) but I would imagine 4 would be doable with a stretch (ie better than Collins transit speeds and indiscretion rates.) It would be most interesting how the Japanese address this issue.
• Barracuda going nuts with 6 engines. With transit speeds much higher than Collins, and an indiscretion rate would be twice as good. How viable is it to remove a nuclear reactor and throw in 6 diesels? I do wonder exactly how much engineering had been done on their proposal.

It also seems that the only AIP worth investing in these days are lithium ion batteries. Faster charging, faster discharging, no irreplaceable or cryogenic/flammable consumables, cheaper over lifetime etc. Having more engines would seem to be very useful for a submarine with lithium batteries. It would seem more suited IMO to the CONOPs of the RAN than other "use once" AIP systems.

I am most interested in what exactly are the Japanese proposing. They certainly have the most experience in operating diesel subs of this size in this region. They also have extensive understanding of Lithium ion batteries and their production.

Which is why I imagine they are being very non specific about what exactly they are offering, at least publicly.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I am most interested in what exactly are the Japanese proposing. They certainly have the most experience in operating diesel subs of this size in this region. They also have extensive understanding of Lithium ion batteries and their production.

they are literally the best deepwater conventional fleet subs in the world.

there's only 2 contenders from my perspective

 

[pussertas]

they are literally the best deepwater conventional fleet subs in the world.

there's only 2 contenders from my perspective

High-capacity lithium-ion batteries are a major part of the Japanese bid.

It would seem sensible to experiment with a local variant so as to have some practical knowledge of these batteries. Otherwise Australia would have no way of knowing just how much we were being screwed. (Or are experiments in train that are classified?)

Good to see that Nippon have decided not to use the name 'Zero' for our first sub. How about Changai?

:dance

 

[rjtjrt]

Probably the biggest single screw up with the Collins class design was the decision to use Hedamoras against the wishes of the RAN and ASC (who wanted MTUs) because Kockums insisted on them, claiming that they were the best option, had a great relationship with the Swedish navy, procurement organisation and Kockums themselves. All well and good, except once the Australian contract for Hedamoras was finalised, Kockums announced the selection of MTUs for the new Swedish subs, Australia takes a hit to support a Swedish company their own navy is quite happy to replace!

Isn't that a large part of the reason Kockums was told to get lost this time?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Isn't that a large part of the reason Kockums was told to get lost this time?

IMO they shot themselves over the way that they conducted the engagement over latter issues such as the propellor, IP management, forgetting that the customer can go to superior options if they're not providing approp responses etc....

 

[Volkodav]

Isn't that a large part of the reason Kockums was told to get lost this time?

No, politics is the reason pure and simple. A deliberate decision was made to demonise the submarine project with the specific political aim of damaging the then opposition leader who was defence minister during key phases of the sub program.

The aim may have been to discredit a political opponent but the resulting collateral damage pretty much completely discredited the subs, themselves, their crews, the RAN, defence, defence procurement, the designer, the builder and shipbuilding as a whole, in the eyes of the media and general public. Once the intended target was out of the picture it was too late to put the genie back in the bottle as the narrative had already been established so we are left with the current pathetic situation.

 

[hairyman]

No doubt you are talking about Kim Beasely.?

 

[MickB]

While the bigger ships are certainly more capable. I'm not sure if we would be getting many/any of those.We were looking at <2000t.

I agree that the 1800 would seem to be a better fit, sea axe bow, order 20 of them. Replace patrol, surveys, mine hunters etc. Seems odd then that the 1400 model and regular bow has been modelled up for display. That said I still like th 1400, it would still over loads more capability than what we have today.

Just having a read up on Damen designs and agree the 1800 looks good for the OPV/Corvette role. An order of 10+ as a replacement for the ACPB seems ideal.

If ordered as a OPV would like to see it armed with the a weapon compatable to the eventual armament on the armys Land 400 IFVs.
Ease of supply and future upgrades to both weapon and ammo can be rolled out through both services.

If ordered as a corvette then a heavier armament is called for: 76mm gun, 8 cell VLS, CEFAR radar all passed down from frigates as they retire.

Fitted for but not with CIWS. (The future frigate would, I hope, have a more modern longer ranged point defence system. Leaving the current Phalanx pool to be shared between the minor warships as needed.)

An out of the box replacement for the survey ships, MCMs and LCHs could be the LST 120. If during construction the rear area of the tank deck was fitted with additional power and data outlets it could function in a similar manner to the mission deck on the LCS.

The LST 120 has a Helo deck, multiple boat davits, a 25 ton side crane and the rear ramp. All of these would enable it to carry and deploy a wide varity of Helos, UAVs, UUVs, small boats and towed sensor pods.

A pool of both survey and MCM mission modules could then be deployed as required. Even with the mission module aboard the LST would still retain a good part of its cargo and troop lift capacity. The shallow draft of the LST would be an advantage to the MCM and Survey vessels

A single class of 12 LST 120s could replace 4 classes of 18 vessels.
6 x LCHs, 6 x Huon MCM, 4 x Paluma Survey, 2 x Leeuwin Survey.

The LST could be equipped with the armament and sensors of the ACPBs as they are retired. Fitted for but not with CIWS. (see above)

I would like more information an the crossover to see how it would compare the T26 as the future frigate.

 

[t68]

Well for those interested I sort of found my answer to the life extension question of Collins class submarines,

Andrew Davies, from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said on Oct. 8.

Davies warned that if delays to the already tight introduction of the Sea 1000 submarine occur, the resultant full cycle docking (FCD) work to extend the Collins boats to avoid a capability gap will not be easy.

“A further FCD wouldn't be more of the same because it is taking the boats beyond their design life and a significant technological refresh would be needed to keep them competitive until late next decade,” he said.

“The engineering work to plan for that really should be underway now. We know studies have been done and that there are no show stoppers, but I don't think any serious work has been done. It really needs to start now, and the FCD of the remaining boats could benefit from it as well.”]

Saab Pitches Collins Submarine Upgrade

 

[rockitten]

Can anyone double check it? If the commentator is correct, on Pacific 2015, MHI was displaying an Aussie version of their 30DX DE with CEA FAR on the integrated mast.

With 3000 tonne displacement and 40kt max speed. That's one hell of a "OPV"......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuMaMl7CD-g