Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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John Newman

The Bunker Group
So we have a press release from a State 'Labor' Government having a dig at a Federal 'Liberal/National' Government, correct? Well gee, who would have thought it possible!! Politics, politics!!

At the end of the day, the SA State Government can 'lobby' European defence manufactures all they like (I'm sure they will enjoy their little European holiday while they are at it too), but it will be the decision of the Federal Government, not European shipbuilders.

On a side note, I don't seem to recall the SA State Labor Government having a go at the Federal Labor Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government about the lack of activity in shipbuilding orders during those six years, funny that!
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So we have a press release from a State 'Labor' Government having a dig at a Federal 'Liberal/National' Government, correct? Well gee, who would have thought it possible!! Politics, politics!!

At the end of the day, the SA State Government can 'lobby' European defence manufactures all they like (I'm sure they will enjoy their little European holiday while they are at it too), but it will be the decision of the Federal Government, not European shipbuilders.

On a side note, I don't seem to recall the SA State Labor Government having a go at the Federal Labor Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government about the lack of activity in shipbuilding orders during those six years, funny that!
Well actually it could also be described as a highly regarded local member, former state Liberal leader, army officer and successful businessman, doing the best he can for his state, and for that matter, the country as a whole. MHS is a highly competent and capable professional who, very aware of the big picture, often steps above party politics for the greater good.

There is cross party support to do everything possible to get sustainable shipbuilding up and running in SA with the seeds of Techport sown in the early 80s under Bannon but pretty much continually supported through three governments and six premiers. The biggest difference is in federal support, when AWD was awarded Hill, Minchin and Downer as Defence, Finance and Foreign Affairs ministers in the Howard government supported and pushed for their home state. Until late last year those portfolios and more to the point the powerful and influential holders of them were all from WA, while SA members had nowhere near the influence or passion. It was under this environment that the idea of buying off shore and maintaining in Australia (preferably near fleet base west) got traction. WA wasn't in a position to bid for construction of major combatants but was able to push their success in maintenance and upgrades, which happened, conveniently at the same time the Defmin was publicly attacking ASC and building up alternatives that aided his state i.e. proposing fast light frigates (or Austal LCS) etc. Johnston was sacked and now we are taking SA builds again.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Well actually it could also be described as a highly regarded local member, former state Liberal leader, army officer and successful businessman, doing the best he can for his state, and for that matter, the country as a whole. MHS is a highly competent and capable professional who, very aware of the big picture, often steps above party politics for the greater good.

There is cross party support to do everything possible to get sustainable shipbuilding up and running in SA with the seeds of Techport sown in the early 80s under Bannon but pretty much continually supported through three governments and six premiers. The biggest difference is in federal support, when AWD was awarded Hill, Minchin and Downer as Defence, Finance and Foreign Affairs ministers in the Howard government supported and pushed for their home state. Until late last year those portfolios and more to the point the powerful and influential holders of them were all from WA, while SA members had nowhere near the influence or passion. It was under this environment that the idea of buying off shore and maintaining in Australia (preferably near fleet base west) got traction. WA wasn't in a position to bid for construction of major combatants but was able to push their success in maintenance and upgrades, which happened, conveniently at the same time the Defmin was publicly attacking ASC and building up alternatives that aided his state i.e. proposing fast light frigates (or Austal LCS) etc. Johnston was sacked and now we are taking SA builds again.
V, of course it can be described anyway one would like to describe it, to me it is purely a press release that smells of political point scoring. These paragraphs for example:

“While I welcome the Commonwealth’s commitment to a continuous in-country naval shipbuilding program, urgent action is needed.

“Progress on the Future Frigate program, to replace the current ANZAC fleet, continues to drag on. Decisions must be made now.
If that is not a pointed political point scoring statement, well I'll eat my hat!

Where was all the chest thumping when Rudd and Gillard were in Government for six years and not one ship was ordered from an Australian yard, especially a SA yard??


The other interesting point was this paragraph:

Minister for Defence Industries Martin Hamilton-Smith will visit Future Submarine bidders DCNS in France and ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems in Germany along with likely contenders for Future Frigate work BAE Systems and Babcock in the United Kingdom. The delegation will also meet with Odense Maritime Technology, SAAB Systems and Fincantieri.
So why no trip to Spain? Surely the 'logical' solution for SA's Naval shipbuilding industry is for the Federal Government to select an evolved AWD as the Future Frigate (regardless of if it the right ship or not for the Navy), an evolved AWD would be the 'right' ship for continuity of work for the shipyards and their workers too, so why not go to Spain and get into discussions on how Navantia, the Spanish Government and the SA Government can put their best feet forward to ensure that an evolved AWD is selected asap??

Cheers,
 

Joe Black

Active Member
So why no trip to Spain? Surely the 'logical' solution for SA's Naval shipbuilding industry is for the Federal Government to select an evolved AWD as the Future Frigate (regardless of if it the right ship or not for the Navy), an evolved AWD would be the 'right' ship for continuity of work for the shipyards and their workers too, so why not go to Spain and get into discussions on how Navantia, the Spanish Government and the SA Government can put their best feet forward to ensure that an evolved AWD is selected asap??

Cheers,
A very good question. I was wondering that too. I suppose they think that the Navantia is already engaged to do some feasibility study on the use of AWD hull for the future frigate.

Boy, I do think that they should also go visit Damen and have a look at their Sea Axe design and the possibility of building the OPV2 in Techport.
 

Trackmaster

Member
V, of course it can be described anyway one would like to describe it, to me it is purely a press release that smells of political point scoring. These paragraphs for example:



If that is not a pointed political point scoring statement, well I'll eat my hat!

Where was all the chest thumping when Rudd and Gillard were in Government for six years and not one ship was ordered from an Australian yard, especially a SA yard??


The other interesting point was this paragraph:



So why no trip to Spain? Surely the 'logical' solution for SA's Naval shipbuilding industry is for the Federal Government to select an evolved AWD as the Future Frigate (regardless of if it the right ship or not for the Navy), an evolved AWD would be the 'right' ship for continuity of work for the shipyards and their workers too, so why not go to Spain and get into discussions on how Navantia, the Spanish Government and the SA Government can put their best feet forward to ensure that an evolved AWD is selected asap??

Cheers,
Looks like a junket...smells like a junket.
I would like to know what level of access they will have on their grand tour.
I suspect those on the other side of the world will have been well briefed and realise these folks will have absolutely no influence on the decision.
I'm sure there will be some lovely photos and a model or two brought home.
The crucial question...where were they in the six years that not one contract was placed?
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Looks like a junket...smells like a junket.
I would like to know what level of access they will have on their grand tour.
I suspect those on the other side of the world will have been well briefed and realise these folks will have absolutely no influence on the decision.
I'm sure there will be some lovely photos and a model or two brought home.
The crucial question...where were they in the six years that not one contract was placed?
Exactly.

Since when did the Federal Government 'out source' Defence equipment selection to the SA State Government? (Maybe we can get the delegation to also drop into Ukraine on the way home and sort out that little problem, I'm sure they would also love to be responsible for Foreign Policy too!) Anyway.....

At the end of the day (above all other Australian states) SA will be the big winner when it comes to work on replacement Submarines and Future Frigates, regardless of which design is selected. Techport is no doubt the place that frigate sized ships and submarines are to be built, if it is decided to build in Australia, which is far more likely than not.

Far more important (and relevant) that a press release from the SA Government is this report in the Japan Times:

Security council OKs disclosing sensitive submarine info to potential customer Australia | The Japan Times

The National Security Council of Japan has approved the disclosure of some of the sensitive information regarding specifications and performance capabilities of the Soryu submarines to the Australian Government to assist in our selection process.

To me that is far more important and relevant to the outcome of what submarine is to be selected as the replacement for Collins, far more so than a junket to Europe by the South Australians.
 

weegee

Active Member
Nothing to add really
So if she is in the water now or officially this week. How long before she is in the hands of the RAN? I don't mean operational but at least with them going through evaluation trials or even sea trials? Surely its not going to be in 2017?
2017 Is a long way off, in her current state what is still to do?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Exactly.

Since when did the Federal Government 'out source' Defence equipment selection to the SA State Government? (Maybe we can get the delegation to also drop into Ukraine on the way home and sort out that little problem, I'm sure they would also love to be responsible for Foreign Policy too!) Anyway.....

At the end of the day (above all other Australian states) SA will be the big winner when it comes to work on replacement Submarines and Future Frigates, regardless of which design is selected. Techport is no doubt the place that frigate sized ships and submarines are to be built, if it is decided to build in Australia, which is far more likely than not.

Far more important (and relevant) that a press release from the SA Government is this report in the Japan Times:

Security council OKs disclosing sensitive submarine info to potential customer Australia | The Japan Times

The National Security Council of Japan has approved the disclosure of some of the sensitive information regarding specifications and performance capabilities of the Soryu submarines to the Australian Government to assist in our selection process.

To me that is far more important and relevant to the outcome of what submarine is to be selected as the replacement for Collins, far more so than a junket to Europe by the South Australians.
Those to the left have their views of reality, as do those to the right, both blind to the fact that they are saying basically the same thing but with different heroes and subjects of scorn. The rest of us just risk concussion from bashing our heads against the wall in frustration.

Politicing has cost us our strategic ship building capability twice in the last forty years and has the potential to do it again. Traditionally a change of government has resulted in a lack of major defence project decisions for at least the first term but usually the first two terms, irrespective of whether they are Labor or Liberal. Because Labor failed to progress any new projects, or even order additional ships from existing projects, it is critical that the current government step up and break this informal tradition.

This, to me, is far more important than political BS and point scoring, I just want a workable solution to prevent expensively earned infrastructure and experience being thrown away yet again. Sort it out and order some ships, OPVs, new frigates, a second batch of AWDs, anything, before the capability is lost and has to be rebuilt.

As to why they didn't go to Spain, Navantia has a substantial presence in Adelaide already with senior managers regularly visiting and meeting with SA government as well as conducting their other business, to have visited Spain really would have been nothing more than a junket. As to the value of these visits, how do you think SA got the Submarine contract over Sydney and Melbourne, or the AWD contract, Holden and Chrysler factories, etc.?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So if she is in the water now or officially this week. How long before she is in the hands of the RAN? I don't mean operational but at least with them going through evaluation trials or even sea trials? Surely its not going to be in 2017?
2017 Is a long way off, in her current state what is still to do?
There is already RAN crew on board, along with her future commander. ASC will maintain material control until completion of builders trials and as such she will be under the command of a civilian master mariner until then.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So if she is in the water now or officially this week. How long before she is in the hands of the RAN? I don't mean operational but at least with them going through evaluation trials or even sea trials? Surely its not going to be in 2017?
2017 Is a long way off, in her current state what is still to do?
STW (Set to Work) trials will take months. Every individual piece of machinery has to powered up, de-bugged and trialled. Every electrical system and electronic system has to be connected and powered up, every valve, switchboard, weapon system, domestic system ad nauseum.
This takes thousands of man hours to complete and after all that is done the Harbour and then sea trials programme commences.
When those are completed a rectification period is undertaken until, finally, the RAN accepts the ship as fit for purpose.
She then commissions and begins the type of "first of class" trials that you have seen occupy Canberra's time over the last months and when those are completed, the ship can begin her operational work up so she can be fit for deployment.
2017 is looking OK IMHO

and... I can assume that much of the internal fit-out is yet to be completed before any of this can start.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In addition to Hobart, Garden Island is going to get very cramped by end of the year.

By the looks of the reports below, Adelaide is due in Sydney in September. Not sure how accurate that is. She should be nearly ready for sea trials I would assume.

No Cookies | dailytelegraph.com.au
I am not privy to the schedule but there is a raft of harbour trials to be conducted alongside before sea trials can begin. Due to her block construction most internal outfit has been completed but there is still a stack of work to do on activation of systems that couldn't be operated on the hard stand.
 

Punta74

Member
I am not privy to the schedule but there is a raft of harbour trials to be conducted alongside before sea trials can begin. Due to her block construction most internal outfit has been completed but there is still a stack of work to do on activation of systems that couldn't be operated on the hard stand.
Volk - I meant LHD Adelaide :) i agree with the statement though Hobart will be a lengthy process to commission.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Those to the left have their views of reality, as do those to the right, both blind to the fact that they are saying basically the same thing but with different heroes and subjects of scorn. The rest of us just risk concussion from bashing our heads against the wall in frustration.

Politicing has cost us our strategic ship building capability twice in the last forty years and has the potential to do it again. Traditionally a change of government has resulted in a lack of major defence project decisions for at least the first term but usually the first two terms, irrespective of whether they are Labor or Liberal. Because Labor failed to progress any new projects, or even order additional ships from existing projects, it is critical that the current government step up and break this informal tradition.

This, to me, is far more important than political BS and point scoring, I just want a workable solution to prevent expensively earned infrastructure and experience being thrown away yet again. Sort it out and order some ships, OPVs, new frigates, a second batch of AWDs, anything, before the capability is lost and has to be rebuilt.

As to why they didn't go to Spain, Navantia has a substantial presence in Adelaide already with senior managers regularly visiting and meeting with SA government as well as conducting their other business, to have visited Spain really would have been nothing more than a junket. As to the value of these visits, how do you think SA got the Submarine contract over Sydney and Melbourne, or the AWD contract, Holden and Chrysler factories, etc.?
V, of course people on either side of the political fence have differing views, agree 100% and at times both sides can't see the trees for the forest, but what does that have to do with the points I was making?

One of the points I was making, was about the SA Government press release and in relation to these two paragraphs:

“While I welcome the Commonwealth’s commitment to a continuous in-country naval shipbuilding program, urgent action is needed.

“Progress on the Future Frigate program, to replace the current ANZAC fleet, continues to drag on. Decisions must be made now.
Is that not an attempt by the SA Government to have a go at the Federal Government? To somehow infer that it is the 'current' Federal Government that is dragging the chain on both what the Federal Government is intending to do for Naval shipbuilding in Australia and SA and also the Future Frigates too?

An alternate (non political) statement from the SA Government 'could' have read:

We congratulate the Federal Government on its investigations to see if an evolved AWD hull will be suitable for the Future Frigate project and by bringing block work forward it will save many jobs in SA and around the country too.

We also look forward to the soon to be released DWP and the Naval shipbuilding plan that will accompany the new DWP which will provide many of the answers to questions we have been waiting for.
Anyway, there is my 'alternate' comment on what the Federal Government is doing for SA shipbuilding!


I don't disagree one little bit that the Government needs to get on with it and order ships for the Navy and in the process to help industry too. But seriously what do you have expected the current Government to have done in the relatively short time it has been in Government?

The facts are the previous Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Government sat on its collective hands for six years, did absolutely nothing, and they have left the current Government with the job to get things going again.

The facts are that the current Government did announce last year that money was being poured into investigating the possibility of evolving the AWD hull for 're-use' as the basis for the Future Frigate (sure we can all argue if an evolved AWD hull is the right basis for the Future Frigate, but we can't have our 'cake and eat it too' when it comes to either proceeding quicker to save shipbuilding jobs and reduce the effects of the Valley of Death, or wait for a potentially better solution for the Future Frigate to come along).

The current Government has also stated that an OPV will replace the ACPB's, it also announced the tender for 'up to 21' replacement Pacific Patrol Boats, it has announced that it wants to have a short list for the Collins replacement sooner than later.

And as soon as the new DWP is announced in a few months, then we should all have some clear answers to the direction that Australian Naval shipbuilding is heading and how it will get there.

Seriously what more can the current Government do??


As to the 'value' of visits by various State Governments to win business and jobs for their State, don't disagree one little bit, if for example NSW and SA were both vying for their State to be the location for the 'new' shipbuilding hub for large warships and submarines, then I'd say yes fair enough, but SA has already won that battle, if frigate sized warships and submarines are to build in Australia, then I can't see that they would be build anywhere else but Techport, can you?

So my other point was, what is the point of the SA delegation going on the European trip and visiting the various shipbuilders mentioned, what is the point?

It's the Federal Government that will make the decision on what ship or submarine is built here and regardless of which type, SA will no doubt be the winner.

Cheers,
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Joe,

Pretty pointless putting up a link to a 'subscriber only' article on The Oz and not either repeating the content of the article or making a comment about the article!!
Thought i have fixed the link to bypass subscription lock. Anyway here it is. ...

"Kevin Andrews to lock in Japanese subs bid during visit
Sarah Martin
THE AUSTRALIAN
MAY 20, 2015 12:00AM


Kevin Andrews will visit Japan within weeks after the country’s national security council signed off on plans to bid for the navy’s future submarine project.

The move comes after the *Defence Minister called his Japanese counterpart Gen Nakatani earlier this month to formally *invite the government to take part in the bid process for the $40 billion project, competing against France and Germany.

The government welcomed Japan’s decision to take part in the so-called “competitive evaluation” process, which will appoint an international partner to work with the ASC shipyard in Adelaide. “We look forward to working with Japan, as we are with France and Germany, on progressing the competitive evaluation process,” a spokesman for Mr Andrews said yesterday.

“Defence has advised the government that for Australian *industry to have the best opportunity to maximise their involvement in the future submarine program, it needs to work with an international partner.


“All three countries have proven submarine design and build capabilities and are currently producing sub*marines.”

The spokesman said Mr *Andrews was expected to travel to Japan “within weeks” to discuss Japan’s bid for its Soryu-class submarines to replace Australia’s Collins-class boats from 2025. The visit comes after Mr Andrews last month visited the ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems shipyard in Germany and the *Direction des Constructions *Navales Ser*vices shipyard in France.

On Monday, Japan’s chief cabinet secretary, Yoshihide Suga, told a news conference that a ministerial meeting had agreed to progress with a bid to replace Australia’s ageing fleet.

It was reported in the Japanese press that military officials *believed Japan was “highly likely” to succeed, given Australia’s interest in its technologies.

The council also agreed to *release sensitive data to the Australian government as part of the bid process.

The Japanese proposal for the 4200-tonne Soryu would involve using contractors Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, with the bid competing against TKMS’s 4000-tonne Type 216 and a conventional version of DCNS’s 5000-tonne nuclear-powered Barracuda.

The decision comes after Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe announced he would seek to change some of the country’s *restrictive defence laws to allow the Self-Defence Forces to increase military operations with foreign countries.

Among proposed changes is a new law allowing the SDF to defend warships and military hardware of foreign allies, including allowing ship inspections in other countries."
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Thought i have fixed the link to bypass subscription lock. Anyway here it is. ...

"Kevin Andrews to lock in Japanese subs bid during visit
Sarah Martin
THE AUSTRALIAN
MAY 20, 2015 12:00AM


Kevin Andrews will visit Japan within weeks after the country’s national security council signed off on plans to bid for the navy’s future submarine project.

The move comes after the *Defence Minister called his Japanese counterpart Gen Nakatani earlier this month to formally *invite the government to take part in the bid process for the $40 billion project, competing against France and Germany.

The government welcomed Japan’s decision to take part in the so-called “competitive evaluation” process, which will appoint an international partner to work with the ASC shipyard in Adelaide. “We look forward to working with Japan, as we are with France and Germany, on progressing the competitive evaluation process,” a spokesman for Mr Andrews said yesterday.

“Defence has advised the government that for Australian *industry to have the best opportunity to maximise their involvement in the future submarine program, it needs to work with an international partner.


“All three countries have proven submarine design and build capabilities and are currently producing sub*marines.”

The spokesman said Mr *Andrews was expected to travel to Japan “within weeks” to discuss Japan’s bid for its Soryu-class submarines to replace Australia’s Collins-class boats from 2025. The visit comes after Mr Andrews last month visited the ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems shipyard in Germany and the *Direction des Constructions *Navales Ser*vices shipyard in France.

On Monday, Japan’s chief cabinet secretary, Yoshihide Suga, told a news conference that a ministerial meeting had agreed to progress with a bid to replace Australia’s ageing fleet.

It was reported in the Japanese press that military officials *believed Japan was “highly likely” to succeed, given Australia’s interest in its technologies.

The council also agreed to *release sensitive data to the Australian government as part of the bid process.

The Japanese proposal for the 4200-tonne Soryu would involve using contractors Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, with the bid competing against TKMS’s 4000-tonne Type 216 and a conventional version of DCNS’s 5000-tonne nuclear-powered Barracuda.

The decision comes after Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe announced he would seek to change some of the country’s *restrictive defence laws to allow the Self-Defence Forces to increase military operations with foreign countries.

Among proposed changes is a new law allowing the SDF to defend warships and military hardware of foreign allies, including allowing ship inspections in other countries."
I don't think the headline, 'Kevin Andrews to lock in Japanese subs bid during visit' is totally accurate, makes it all sound like a done deal.

I think it's more about the signing of documents that would cover the various Government to Government protocols to allow Japan to give Australia the access to the information on the Soryu class that the Australian Government will need to be able to make an 'informed' decision and ensure that information is kept confidential too.

I read an article from the Japan Times today (put a link up in a previous post today), where the National Security Council of Japan has agreed to give access to certain 'sensitive' information on the Soryu class, not everything, but apparently enough for Australia to be able to make an informed decision, no doubt this is what the Def Min will be visiting Japan for to formalise.

It's sort of like Japan has taken off the sash holding the Kimono in place, they certainly seem willing to give us a good 'flash' and see what's under the Kimono, but I don't think they will be ready to drop the Kimono on the floor and get into the hot tub so we can sit there and give each other a good scrubbing down yet, not yet anyway!!!

Enough of the Kimono and hot tub analogies! But this does appear to one further step taken by Japan to ease the export restrictions on sensitive technologies (at least with a close friend), and no doubt the US would also be encouraging the development of this relationship too.
 
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