Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[StobieWan]

I'm not sure that Australian costs are much cheaper however - but the NSC is a very capable (and expensive) OPV -very long legs and a fit in terms of sensors and decoys etc at least approaching some frigates as is. I don't think Oz would fancy one for patrol work however - there's stacks of much cheaper designs out there - even the Hollands which are usually held up as high-end patrol are barely a third the price of an NSC, let along a Frigate derivative with all those additional costs.

I'm not familiar with what the proposed requirements would be but an NSC would be the most expensive competitor in any bid I'm sure.

 

[Sea Toby]

I'm not sure that Australian costs are much cheaper however - but the NSC is a very capable (and expensive) OPV -very long legs and a fit in terms of sensors and decoys etc at least approaching some frigates as is. I don't think Oz would fancy one for patrol work however - there's stacks of much cheaper designs out there - even the Hollands which are usually held up as high-end patrol are barely a third the price of an NSC, let along a Frigate derivative with all those additional costs.

I'm not familiar with what the proposed requirements would be but an NSC would be the most expensive competitor in any bid I'm sure.

The NSCs are even too expensive for the USCG with two of the planned eight dropped. The USCG can't wait to start building the OPCs, of which some twenty four are planned. Outside of the Alaskan fisheries EEZ, the OPCs will have enough endurance to patrol the rest of the US EEZ. The OPCs are also expected to cost about half as much as the NSCs too.

I don't think it is a good idea for Australia to be buying high endurance NSCs designed for Alaskan seas. Not when there are cheaper OPVs available on the off the shelf market which are more suitable for Australian seas. It would be like fitting a square peg through a round hole. Frankly the NZ OPVs Australia built are more suitable for Australia than NSCs.

 

[alexsa]

More about the state of the navy's patrol boat fleet.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/defence/patrol-boats-cant-stay-shipshape/story-e6frg8yo-1226513358065
For those who can't access the story the jist of it is that the navy is struggling to keep 7 boats available. Three boats have structural cracks and two have had major engine failures.



I am not really sure that the opposition party can afford to get too cocky about this. After all they are they ones who decided to penny pinch when they selected the design.

That is the risk with light weight hulls. Aluminium is a tricky material and pretty unforgiving if you deign any stresses into it. Combine this with a pretty high work load and 'cracking' (due to fatigue as well) is the likely outcome.


But fear not the Cape Class are coming ........... except the are the same hull with modified upper works.

 

[hairyman]

Will these problems of our patrol boats mean that we will have to replace them sooner than planned? We may have to start building those 20 boats shortly. Has any plans or drawings been made public for the patrol boat version yet?

 

[justsomeaussie]

Interesting they are trying to level the blame at Austal. Considering the Customs Bay Class are also made to a similar standard are used in similar conditions and are older and in far better condition says to me two things: the RAN has been running the absolute guts out of the boats, putting them into sea state 6-7 when the boats weren't designed to be working through that day in day out, and that they simply aren't maintained properly.

When the ship's crew can't even replace a cabinet latch, something tells you that the contract is horribly put together. As I've heard ship's husbandry simply can't happen because DMS has all forms of the maintenance sewn up.

 

[alexsa]

Interesting they are trying to level the blame at Austal. Considering the Customs Bay Class are also made to a similar standard are used in similar conditions .

Actually this is not strictly true. The Bay Class are quire a bit smaller and quite a bit shorter ranged. this has an impact on how they are operated and the impct this has on the vessel. It is also is one of the reasons they are to be replaced ........ along with the fact there is also suggestion these are pretty worn out as well.

 

[hauritz]

Will these problems of our patrol boats mean that we will have to replace them sooner than planned? We may have to start building those 20 boats shortly. Has any plans or drawings been made public for the patrol boat version yet?

I assume that you are referring to the 20 OCVs recommended in the 2009 white paper.

They will now have to survive the 2013 white paper, and if this government loses power they will probably be reviewed again in yet another white paper commissioned by the new government.

 

[justsomeaussie]

I have actually seen them side by side in Darwin. It's quite a contrast of how poorly maintained the Armidales are. You are correct about the Bays being smaller but still an Al hull built to "commercial" standards and yes they have been out to Christmas Is. Customs even fly their crews in just for the job.

 

[alexsa]

I have actually seen them side by side in Darwin. It's quite a contrast of how poorly maintained the Armidales are. You are correct about the Bays being smaller but still an Al hull built to "commercial" standards and yes they have been out to Christmas Is. Customs even fly their crews in just for the job.

True but they ave short sea cycles and do not tend to do the long pursuit/response runs. They are very much an asset deployed to an areas 9such as Ashmore) to be in situ. The lack of space to pick up large numbers of "passengers" is also an issue meaning a lot of this falls to the ACPB, particualry where the incoming vessel is well away from the coast and carrying a large number of persons.

Simple comment is you cannot extrapolate from one to the other. If the Cape Class were in service and looked better then the comparison could be made.

Cheers

 

[Dayra]

That is the risk with light weight hulls. Aluminium is a tricky material and pretty unforgiving if you deign any stresses into it. Combine this with a pretty high work load and 'cracking' (due to fatigue as well) is the likely outcome.


But fear not the Cape Class are coming ........... except the are the same hull with modified upper works.

The first cape class is believed by myself to be rumored to be delivered by march 2013 with the rest of the 8 on order going to Customs not the navy. This is why in the interim US ships would be appreciated. (Admin. Deleted. This bit not necessary.)

So no more Patrol Boats for the Navy whats wrong with these people?

 

[alexsa]

The first cape class is believed by myself to be rumored to be delivered by march 2013 with the rest of the 8 on order going to Customs not the navy. This is why in the interim US ships would be appreciated. Do they have serious bad illegal immigration problem in Singapore? Is it all just sensationalism anyway as usual or do they actually want more 'cheap foreign labor' in the country to keep wages low and try to avoid stagflation problem they have created by not managing immigration properly in the first place. Viva Australian Republic.

So no more Patrol Boats for the Navy whats wrong with these people?

Just to be clear all Cape Class are fur Australian Customs and Border Protection. It is a joint task with Navy. ACBP and cilvilian chartered tonnaged involved. The latter is not likley to continue.

As for the rest of the message ............................

 

[hauritz]

Just to be clear all Cape Class are fur Australian Customs and Border Protection. It is a joint task with Navy. ACBP and cilvilian chartered tonnaged involved. The latter is not likley to continue.

Does anyone remember the old Kim Beazley idea for a Coast Guard.

It is an idea that the Labor party seems to have tossed aside. Personally I always thought the idea had some merit.

 

[ASSAIL]

True but they ave short sea cycles and do not tend to do the long pursuit/response runs. They are very much an asset deployed to an areas 9such as Ashmore) to be in situ. The lack of space to pick up large numbers of "passengers" is also an issue meaning a lot of this falls to the ACPB, particualry where the incoming vessel is well away from the coast and carrying a large number of persons.

Simple comment is you cannot extrapolate from one to the other. If the Cape Class were in service and looked better then the comparison could be made.

Cheers

Nice to see you back A.
Speed and rough weather performance plays a big part in the fatigue/cracking differences between the Bays (20kts) and Armidales (25kts)

I have been at speed in an ACPB in a decent swell and they are incredibly comfortable. This contributes to COs maintaining higher speeds than is prudent when the weather deteriorates, thus hull fatigue.
Compared with an Attack boat which fell into troughs at anything over 12 kts and was forced to slow down, they are magnificent.

I have no direct experience with the Bays but I know an engineer who works on one and his description very much fits the same performance as that of the Attacks, not surprising as they are only 5 mtrs longer.

Its a no brainer that fatigue/cracking is set to become more prevalent as they age.

 

[Dayra]

Nice to see you back A.
Speed and rough weather performance plays a big part in the fatigue/cracking differences between the Bays (20kts) and Armidales (25kts)

I have been at speed in an ACPB in a decent swell and they are incredibly comfortable. This contributes to COs maintaining higher speeds than is prudent when the weather deteriorates, thus hull fatigue.
Compared with an Attack boat which fell into troughs at anything over 12 kts and was forced to slow down, they are magnificent.

I have no direct experience with the Bays but I know an engineer who works on one and his description very much fits the same performance as that of the Attacks, not surprising as they are only 5 mtrs longer.

Its a no brainer that fatigue/cracking is set to become more prevalent as they age.

Its interesting when you consider the requirements of the Patrol boat because it is a multi-function platform.

Cape Class missions (from Naval Technology)
The Cape Class ...conduct security and surveillance operations.
prevent unauthorised maritime access, piracy, maritime terrorism, marine pollution, illegal foreign fishing, unlawful import or export and illegal activity in protected areas.

One page I was led to this afternoon was Defense Update that had a good review of the Fast Patrol Boats (which are actually Ships) in coastal defence used by Israel. While they are fast with top speeds of 45 and 50 knots they loose maneuverability functionality at slower speeds. Yet both the Super Dvora 3 and the SHALDAG MK-III handle very well in rough seas and have a low cost low maintenance appeal to them. This kind of platform would suit a base at Xmas Island. I think in terms of events the lives lost when a boat crashed onto the reef up there might of been preventable by a ship like the Dvora because it can operate in 1.5M waters.

Cant find any Data on the Dvora for its Hull Strength etc. however its tipped with minimal amount of non-scheduled maintenance. Its hard to know if would stand up to the constant work load we currently have.

Main point I think here is that their might be room to diversify to include a range of different vessels rather than being lumped with multi role which lack the extreme capabilities for those exceptions to the rule that people these days just lurv to dwell upon and sensationalize. :daz

 

[hauritz]

Main point I think here is that their might be room to diversify to include a range of different vessels rather than being lumped with multi role which lack the extreme capabilities for those exceptions to the rule that people these days just lurv to dwell upon and sensationalize. :daz

It is cheaper to build and sustain one type of boat. There maybe benefits in operating a diverse fleet ... but that has to be balanced against costs.

 

[Todjaeger]

Its interesting when you consider the requirements of the Patrol boat because it is a multi-function platform.

Cape Class missions (from Naval Technology)
The Cape Class ...conduct security and surveillance operations.
prevent unauthorised maritime access, piracy, maritime terrorism, marine pollution, illegal foreign fishing, unlawful import or export and illegal activity in protected areas.

One page I was led to this afternoon was Defense Update that had a good review of the Fast Patrol Boats (which are actually Ships) in coastal defence used by Israel. While they are fast with top speeds of 45 and 50 knots they loose maneuverability functionality at slower speeds. Yet both the Super Dvora 3 and the SHALDAG MK-III handle very well in rough seas and have a low cost low maintenance appeal to them. This kind of platform would suit a base at Xmas Island. I think in terms of events the lives lost when a boat crashed onto the reef up there might of been preventable by a ship like the Dvora because it can operate in 1.5M waters.

Cant find any Data on the Dvora for its Hull Strength etc. however its tipped with minimal amount of non-scheduled maintenance. Its hard to know if would stand up to the constant work load we currently have.

Main point I think here is that their might be room to diversify to include a range of different vessels rather than being lumped with multi role which lack the extreme capabilities for those exceptions to the rule that people these days just lurv to dwell upon and sensationalize. :daz

Smallcraft and boats (yes the various Dvora-class are boats not ships) are quite useful vessels, but would not be suitable are replacements for what the ACPB's do. Instead, they (the Dvora-class PB's) could serve as an adjunct to existing and/or replacement RAN vessels.

Keep in mind, depending on which particular Dvora/Super Dvora Mk II/Super Dvora Mk III-class PB one speaks of, then one is discussing a patrol boat which is a third to a half the length of an ACPB, and has only 16% - 22% the displacement of an ACPB. The range is similarly shortened, with a Super Dvora Mk III-class PB having a range of ~ 700 n miles @14 kts vs. an ACPB's ~3,000 n miles @12 kts...
There is also the question of how long a crew can operate such a small vessel before needing to make port and rest, reprovision, etc. Especially if carrying passengers/crew from a SIEV.

A small PB of such types would potentially be very useful as an inshore/coastal patrol vessel for harbours and anchorages. They could also be useful for escorting and interdicting smallcraft as part of an amphib op if brought in by an LHD, LPD, or similar. However, for the tasks which the ACPB's have been performing, they are essentially a step in the wrong direction if intended as a replacement. Part of the reason for the RAN wanting an OCV is to have larger, ocean-going patrol assets which have better seakeeping, more capable, greater endurance, etc.

-Cheers

 

[Volkodav]

It would make sense to split the buy while still using common systems where possible. A class of larger craft for off shoreand international work and a complementry inshore design that still have the required patrol, survey, MCM mission variants. It could actually be taken further with the offshore variant being a light patrol frigate design that can be tricked out with an augmented combat system in addition to its base patrol / survey / MCM mission, as required and become the spirital successor to the original PF (patrol frigate) concept and replace the ANZACs while the new frigate replace the FFGs. The smaller vessels could probably be more specialised and less adaptable

 

[Todjaeger]

It is cheaper to build and sustain one type of boat. There maybe benefits in operating a diverse fleet ... but that has to be balanced against costs.

IIRC the cost of a new Super Dvora Mk III-class PB was/is somewhere around $5 mil. At current exchange rates that works out to ~5:1 Super Dvora : ACPB. Having a few of them in addition to the current patrol boat fleet would likely be a little more expensive, but not likely overly expensive.

-Cheers

 

[Volkodav]

IIRC the cost of a new Super Dvora Mk III-class PB was/is somewhere around $5 mil. At current exchange rates that works out to ~5:1 Super Dvora : ACPB. Having a few of them in addition to the current patrol boat fleet would likely be a little more expensive, but not likely overly expensive.

-Cheers

The other option would to go even smaller and aquire a fast interceptot craft that could be operated from either fixed bases or from larger mother ships, i.e. the ANZAC replacement if it were fitted with a stern launch and recovery system.

 

[Dayra]

A small PB of such types would potentially be very useful as an inshore/coastal patrol vessel for harbors and anchorages. useful for escorting and interdicting small craft as part of an amphibious operations if brought in by an LHD, LPD, or similar.


Part of the reason for the RAN wanting an OCV is to have larger, ocean-going patrol assets which have better seakeeping, more capable, greater endurance, etc.

-Cheers

I just watched a good video run down of the range of uses it is touted for. Landing right on the beach for example. This would be an awesome inclusion in the amphibious kit. It also has a great range of weapons and electronics. The google search for that was 'Israel Aerospace Industries RAMTA Super Dvora Patrol Boat' in you tube. The presentation claimed a 1200 Nautical Mile Range. Look all its worth watching the video.

The think I like most is the possiblity of up-scaling the hull and propulsion systems and so on and in principle carry more fuel and increase the range and towing and rescue capacity. It could spend more time at sea and be easy to replenish.

The main thing right now that is important is the lack of the hull slamming effect even in rough seas. Then again that might not even be the problem.

Ok so as far as I know RAN will be leaving Coast Guard Customs Guys to the Patrol boats and they have a 2019 proposed deliver for Planned Australian offshore combatant vessel. Its a multimission ship with compact container mission packs that can be fitted / remove with out drydocking making them very versatile. There will be 20 of them its proposed.

more can be found on that in Planned Australian offshore combatant vessel at Wikipedia.