Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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McTaff

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It is officially official. I'm in the process of writing up the 10 year Amphibious capability and force structure agreements and LHD is the term. Everyone: CN, COMAUSFLT, COMATG, CANAASG... calls them LHDs.
So does CANAG!

Well. its usage is not particularly consistent throughout ADF, or the RAN.

In any case, helicopter deck or not, it is still built to carry JSF aircraft.
I've never heard it called anything else, except there is a small contingent of civilian and non-Navy Defence people who call it "carrier" out of ignorance. But LHD has always been the term. I'm working with RAAFies at the moment and they call them "carriers" or "LHD's".

In fact, it's amazing that people call them Canberra-class, as we never hear that in the RAN.
 

McTaff

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Capability planning is linked to money and in Defence the requirement from CFO and the central agencies is a 10 year forward projection.

It's also handy for working out long lead time issues.
Plan Green is also on a ten-year basis.

It's a common standard, albiet originally an arbitrary sounding one, and it fits in with a lot of projections we can make. Ten years is seen as the 'not too long, not too short' time to implement strategies for policy and structural changes, amongst other things.

-

From memory AFTP4 has ships doing about one hundred DC17 (toxic hazard exercise) a year, so ships should be all over it like a rash. Hell, I didn't serve on a single ship that didn't have at least 2 Safeguard toxic hazards a year.
I was being cagey about figures, but that's about right. I can say I've been present for a number greater than two Safeguard Toxic Hazards in this year.
 
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icelord

The Bunker Group
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So does CANAG!
In fact, it's amazing that people call them Canberra-class, as we never hear that in the RAN.
Is that because no one likes the idea of Canberra class, i'm not hearing much in support for the name, hell i'd prefer Melbourne and Sydney for old times sake.
 

McTaff

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Is that because no one likes the idea of Canberra class, i'm not hearing much in support for the name, hell i'd prefer Melbourne and Sydney for old times sake.
We've recycled the same ship names that many times that it's starting to get more than just a little boring.

Of course, battle honours and tradition follow on, and to some it is important to continue the use of the same ship names but sometimes you need to inject a new life into the naming system.

I was one of the folk who wanted to see the new Air Warfare ships called Vendetta, Vampire with an option on Voyager. Alternatively, if Voyager was to be left out, we could have picked Vanguard, Vengeance, or Valhalla, or any other V word.

For the LHD's, I'd have liked to have heard suggestions. The names of the First Fleet ships have seen use, nothing wrong with using a couple of those if the Brits wouldn't mind.

If nothing else, perhaps we should name ships after WWI VC recipients, or WWII VC recipients. Maybe famous explorers of Australian land and/or waters?
 

icelord

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there was talk they wanted Galipolli and Kokoda for the LHD, which would have worked, Long Tan as the Combat support Ship
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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Well. its usage is not particularly consistent throughout ADF, or the RAN.
Its more consistent in RAN that the services who don't own them and in some cases don't have a clue

Apart from which, I think AMPT10 has a bit more claim to what RAN does than the majority of us....

In any case, helicopter deck or not, it is still built to carry JSF aircraft.
it's also built to carry tanks, IMV's, heavy vehicles, rhibs, anything that can be swung from a davit etc...

as stated before, ferry work, cash and carry work is not the same as wandering off to undertake dedicated air missions.

Its gets really frustrating for this discussion to continue on and some to persistently argue that we have defacto carriers when we don't.

a ute fitted with a challenger canopy is not a panel van. an LHA that can multi mission role after fitout changes is not a carrier.

the capability is different, the tempo rates are different, the vessels persistence on that mission is different.

once you add in fixed air as the primary vehicle of message delivery you need to make sure that its fitted to deal with armoured storage for fixed air weapons like missiles, inert weapons etc..., different fuel storage, fuel for a given tempo etc...., fuel routing for separate fuel types, fire management systems, control systems etc.... Then those storage issues have to be sympathetic to the ops. eg, no point in having the armoured weapons handling area inaccessible to the loaders and armourers, and that means that space designated for "x" must be sorted out. "X" space then needs to be carefully thought about in case it impacts on their own flexibility etc....

they're not carriers, they're not fitted out as carriers, they can't do anything like that unless their internals are modified accordingly.

you just can't change over the space use to store baked beans, armour it up and call it a weapons stowage area or a jet fuel bunker.
 

Tasman

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I Everyone: CN, COMAUSFLT, COMATG, CANAASG... calls them LHDs.
Thank goodness for that. I was starting to wonder about where the use of LAS as a classification had come from as they had always been referred to as LHD's in everything I had heard or read from RAN sources.

Re the names I would have much preferred that the names of major Australian amphibious landings, or operations involving significant Australian navy/army co-operation, had been selected for these ships. IMO, Gallipoli would have been an excellent choice for the nameship of the class. Tobruck would also have been highly appropriate, providing the present Tobruck was one of the units replaced.

Tas
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Its gets really frustrating for this discussion to continue on and some to persistently argue that we have defacto carriers when we don't.

an LHA that can multi mission role after fitout changes is not a carrier.

the capability is different, the tempo rates are different, the vessels persistence on that mission is different.

once you add in fixed air as the primary vehicle of message delivery you need to make sure that its fitted to deal with armoured storage for fixed air weapons like missiles, inert weapons etc..., different fuel storage, fuel for a given tempo etc...., fuel routing for separate fuel types, fire management systems, control systems etc.... Then those storage issues have to be sympathetic to the ops. eg, no point in having the armoured weapons handling area inaccessible to the loaders and armourers, and that means that space designated for "x" must be sorted out. "X" space then needs to be carefully thought about in case it impacts on their own flexibility etc....

they're not carriers, they're not fitted out as carriers, they can't do anything like that unless their internals are modified accordingly.

you just can't change over the space use to store baked beans, armour it up and call it a weapons stowage area or a jet fuel bunker.
With all due respect, the aircraft deck is separated from the vehicle deck.
The aircraft deck is rigged for capability to carry helicopters and aircraft, either or both. Helicopters are certainly going to be carried, and those helicopters will have missiles just as demanding in terms of safety as anything the JSF are likely to carry.

Its unlikely that the JSF is being designed to be completely incompatible with existing standard onboard USMC aircraft support operations systems currently used for AV-8Bs. I don't know if AV-8B uses a different JP mixture to Blackhawks or MRH-90s, or JSF for that matter, but it can't be that different.

Would the Spanish actually remove all the fixedwing-specific engineering equipment if the ADF contract did not specify it?! Would it be impossible to retrofit it in Australia?

The point of using JSF off the LHDs is not to 'call' them aircraft carriers, which they are by virtue of rotary aircraft (yes, election time so I can get into semantics), but to ensure a balanced all-Services and Arms mix on the mission. I hope this assertion is not going to frustrate anyone. This idea seems to be at the core of what most theories have to say about expeditionary warfare.

I'm sure I should not have to post the aircraft mix on the USN LHDs, but here it is
variable by mission
:
12 CH-46 Sea Knight helicopters; (= MRH-90s)
4 CH-53E Super Stallion helicopters; (= CH-47Fs)
6 AV-8B Harrier attack aircraft; ( ? )
3 UH-1N Huey helicopters; (= NFH-90?)
4 AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters; and (= Tiger ARH)
(planned capability to embark MV-22 Osprey VTOL tiltrotor aircraft)

The USN LHDs are still under construction, so JSF will have to conform to restrictions of being operated from them.

In any case, it'll be interesting to see how the ships are used 20-30 years from now with no fixed wing air support capability in what I'm fairly sure will be a more dangerous World and our region in particular.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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With all due respect, the aircraft deck is separated from the vehicle deck.
The aircraft deck is rigged for capability to carry helicopters and aircraft, either or both. Helicopters are certainly going to be carried, and those helicopters will have missiles just as demanding in terms of safety as anything the JSF are likely to carry.
For goodness sake - its not whether they can carry the damn things, its the level of support that can be applied and is sympathetic to the vessels mission.

Thats why the fitout is basically "either - or"

Rotary support and delivery is different from fixed wing jets. hence my none too subtle comments about the issue of weapons armoury (eg, missiles are handled differently), fuel storage for jets, the impact on aircraft movements, the impact on handling and a raft of other things. (eg my pointed references to fire an risk management issues which we do have to comply with.)

You just can't co-locate capability just because the 2 dimensional picture looks good and because it would be nice to have

Semantics mean crap all when you get the operational requirements and principles wrong.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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I'm sure I should not have to post the aircraft mix on the USN LHDs, but here it is :
12 CH-46 Sea Knight helicopters; (= MRH-90s)
4 CH-53E Super Stallion helicopters; (= CH-47Fs)
6 AV-8B Harrier attack aircraft; ( ? )
3 UH-1N Huey helicopters; (= NFH-90?)
4 AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters; and (= Tiger ARH)
(planned capability to embark MV-22 Osprey VTOL tiltrotor aircraft)

The USN LHDs are still under construction, so JSF will have to conform to restrictions of being operated from them.

In any case, it'll be interesting to see how the ships are used 20-30 years from now with no fixed wing air support capability in what I'm fairly sure will be a more dangerous World and our region in particular.
what has any of this got to do with the issue of fitout issues on the RAN LHA's??
 

AGRA

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Re the names I would have much preferred that the names of major Australian amphibious landings, or operations involving significant Australian navy/army co-operation, had been selected for these ships. IMO, Gallipoli would have been an excellent choice for the nameship of the class. Tobruck would also have been highly appropriate, providing the present Tobruck was one of the units replaced.
The Navy actually has a ship named for Gallipoli, the HMAS "ANZAC" which is named for the battle that took place at Anzac Cove - our soldiers never got anywhere near the town of Gallipoli...

Having spent some time at sea on Carriers and US Navy LHDs I can assure anyone who cares to listen that the big metal deck - while an important part of the carrier capability - does not make an aircraft carrier. There is a lot more needed to turn a LHD from some enthusiast's wet dream into an aircraft carrier, a range of things our Canberra class LHDs don't have.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Navy actually has a ship named for Gallipoli, the HMAS "ANZAC" which is named for the battle that took place at Anzac Cove - our soldiers never got anywhere near the town of Gallipoli.....
Surely it's named for the Australian & New Zealand Army Corps, in honour of which the cove was nicknamed?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
For goodness sake - its not whether they can carry the damn things, its the level of support that can be applied and is sympathetic to the vessels mission.

Thats why the fitout is basically "either - or"

Rotary support and delivery is different from fixed wing jets. hence my none too subtle comments about the issue of weapons armoury (eg, missiles are handled differently), fuel storage for jets, the impact on aircraft movements, the impact on handling and a raft of other things. (eg my pointed references to fire an risk management issues which we do have to comply with.)

You just can't co-locate capability just because the 2 dimensional picture looks good and because it would be nice to have

Semantics mean crap all when you get the operational requirements and principles wrong.
I can only speak for what I have seen on display by the designer/builder, and that is, that the ships are configured to carry helicopters and fixed wing aircraft, not either - or. That is certainly the Spanish and Italian intention.

I'm not sure what you consider less dangerous about handling Hellfire missiles that does not apply to any potential weapons carried on the JSF.
Of course I'm no expert on risk management on aircraft carrying warships, but it seems to me the scale and quantity of aircraft and weapons does not vary with size of warship. One ASW armed helicopter operating off a frigate is just as risky as any number of other types off an LHD.

The simple explanation is that probably neither Service concerned has the capability to provide the personnel to service the JSF should they be required, and so it will take a recruiting strategy over the next 5-6 years to just get the personnel, never mind the funding, and all the other issues you mentioned, which are by the way just a part and parcel of operating LHDs in the experience of at least half-dozen other navies.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
The Navy actually has a ship named for Gallipoli, the HMAS "ANZAC" which is named for the battle that took place at Anzac Cove - our soldiers never got anywhere near the town of Gallipoli...

Having spent some time at sea on Carriers and US Navy LHDs I can assure anyone who cares to listen that the big metal deck - while an important part of the carrier capability - does not make an aircraft carrier. There is a lot more needed to turn a LHD from some enthusiast's wet dream into an aircraft carrier, a range of things our Canberra class LHDs don't have.
Did you miss the Harriers on the USN LHD?
There must be a lot of professionals in a lot of navies that are having the same dream...including the USN,
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
And they can barely operate that!

What we have with this LHD is a very flexable ship that can be adapted (depending on how much from weeks to months) for a wide varity of missions.

It can be filled with rotary choppers, troops, vechicals, or be prepped for humanitarian duties, or primary command duties etc. It can also move a F-35 on its lifts and allow a F-35B to take off or land. It has the facilities to rearm attack choppers and fixed wing aircraft (weapons lift). It can refuel such aircraft.

GF is aruging it does not have the capability of sustaining fixed wing aircraft by itself. You can't overhaul, major repair, or even major inspect these aircraft unless you specifically fit it out to do so. That would take months if not longer.

Fair enough. I am saying we don't need to load it up with 12 F-35B's send it off to africa, and keep those aircraft operating for 6 months which it can't do. Im saying for example:

1) you could park it at the edge of our EEZ (or simular) and use it as a lilly pad. Aircraft fly from shore, land, refuel, take off and patrol/strike etc then land, refuel take off home. Thus allowing more aircraft to operate than our limited refueling aircraft can handle.

2) If you had 24 F-35B's (ha!) and two LHD's spare(ha!), you could operate 6-12 for a while on each ship for say a period of a week or two. Then send in another LHD with new planes and return the used planes for deeper service. The resupply ship wouldn't have to be a LHD, if you could work out a way of moving F-35B's from say a large RORO onto a LHD. Then you could sustain a carrier like presence, for a short while.

3) You could use it in combination with UK, US assets as it looks like both will operate F-35B's, to provide additional capability, emegency landing areas, refueling stops, rearming stops etc. Force multiplying already very capable ships and boosting sortie rates during peak periods.

4) Have 3 LHD's, but one specifically fitted out as a "carrier". At a pinch the others could operate aircraft in any of the above suggested ways, but to sustain fixed wing aircraft, this LHD takes on that role. Dock could still be used to carry more landing craft, but these wouldn't unload equipment from this LHD but to assist the other LHD's. There would be additional space for troops and hospital facilities. So you get a blend of capabilities. Or if a superior ship is avalible (CVF, cavor or new spanish carrier) then same deal, the other LHD can operate aircraft as above while its indesposed.

All of these recognise that the LHD has severe short commings as a "carrier", but can easily handle some carrier type operations and functions. Australia would get all the carrier power it would ever need for its region. But with out the expense of three or more large dedicated carriers.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Wasp-class - ships 50% larger than the BPE, that operate 6-8 Harriers. Hmmm. :rolleyes:
Swerve, my point has all along been not about size, but about the mission!

The USN LHDs are configured for a mission.
The fact that they are 50% larger then the Canberra class designs is an issue of design specifications based on USMC/USN operational needs. However this provides only a marginal increase in personnel payload, and does not change the mission drastically. I need only mention the AAV-7A1 that the US Marines use that account for a large segment of the vehicle deck. They are also built to operate the Ospreys that have been in development for two decades, and will take up quite a bit of aircraft deck space. Take those two platforms out, and you end up with the 'small' European carriers (yes, carriers because they carry; like coal carriers and dry cargo carriers,etc.)

I have wargamed different configurations of ships, as well as task forces, using Soviet, British, French, Spanish and of course USMC models. I'm sure the professionals at ADF did also. In the end it comes out as a battalion-sized battlegroup unless one wants a very much larger commitment. The further one stretches the naval logistic tether, the larger the force has to be.

Only in the most 'soft', close-to-port of missions does the battlegroup do well without fixed-wing support. And this is not for reasons of air-to-air capability of a fast jet. I really do not get turned on by 'big shiny things'. Its whatever it takes to get the job done.
However I assumed a "hardened and networked" battlegroup operating against an opponent with at least a minimal anti-ship capability, and one with minimal surface-to-air and tactical missile capabilities. My other assumptions are that the opposition will not be professional, or well organised. The opposition will have warning time of Australian TF approach of at least 1-7 days.
I have assumed SF going ashore first by whatever means (subs tend to ensure greater survivability).
What happens in the end is that slowly the helicopter component starts to take losses (combat or non-combat), and the whole progress of the mission grinds to a logistic halt a the end of a tenuous tether from the naval TF that has to manoeuvre to avoid ASM threat. This is post 2015.

Then I consider the end-of-life service of the various systems involved C.2025. Logistics become even more crucial. The region is awash with tactical missiles that are far more advanced because most states can't afford to run ships due to cost of fuel. Most navies are retrograding through history, with only the economically strong having few very heavily armed and protected ships. The rest have large shore-defence artillery forces with UAVs providing over-the-horizon surveillance. Most countries can't afford to operate large numbers of fast jets either. The typical airforce is maybe a squadron or two of manned jets, with the rest being swarms of unmanned craft. These are armed with long range missiles equally usable against aircraft and naval ships.

The Australian TF would have to approach through a veritable swarm of missile fire. Average anti-ship missile range is beyond territorial waters limits,and most countries now claim the maximum 250nm if they can in competition for scarce marine resources. Almost every 'amphibious' operation is opposed to some degree, and that opposition starts 250nm away from shore, never mind objective.

Can the ARHs take out the missile batteries to allow the TF to approach the last 250nm to shore to launch its surface landing elements? I really doubt it. They fly too low and too slow to do the job. What about if a countermeasures helo is also used to jam missiles? Sounds good, but not much use against optical guidance on the cheap UAVs. So first the UAVs have to be removed from the equation. AWD will no doubt help, but for how long? Right now they are configured to protect against fixed wing threats. Will they do as well against large numbers of UAVs?

So I'm not here to promote JSF, or trumpet 'carriers'. All I'm saying is that if someone can show me how the TF can achieve its mission goals without fixed wing aircraft support 20-30 years from now, I will happy say sorry and go away with head hung in shame.
Right now I just don't see it, and the above is just half the story of getting to the AO.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
large dedicated carriers.
Unless someone invents cheap new fuel to power naval vessels and aviation assets the age of large aircraft carriers is close to the end.
20-30 years from now most navies will be about protecting the territorial waters using alternative (solar?) powered propulsion and dependent on missiles for its offensive capability. onboard command of UAVs will provide AO vision. Of course no computer will ever outfight a trained human pilot, so the states with manned naval aviation will be the naval powers of this century, even if those assets will be counted in ones and not tens, never mind hundreds.

However, this doesn't mean that Australia can't have its large aircraft carrier should it need one. In an emergency Australia's creative 'juices' will flow to respond to the need, and there are ways and means to put one to sea if a carrier is really what is needed in a relatively short time.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
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Lets end this, need it...no, want it...perhaps, require it, nope.
The LHD was selected over the French contender as it was larger, could provide more accomadation for Vehicles, troops and was designed with a longer time at sea when compared to the French Mistral. The use of Supporting Aircraft Carrier by the Spanish is advantageous to the Spainish to provide a relief if their carrier is in dry dock, But in Australia the LHD was ordered to ensure a large troop movement with support of Helicopters. The Future use as a F-35 Carrier is according to Air-marshal Houston"not in the ADF current plans" Please note, the purchase of a 2 LHDs wasn't in the ADF plans 10 years ago, so in 10 years we may want to look at this, at which time some genirous pollie:rolleyes: might see a Third LHD allieviate a growing ADF requirement at a cheaper price then other options, and THEN we look at carrier, till then troops and Helos ahoy.
As to an earlier post, most likely the RAN will stick with RAAF Air traffic controllers as on most RAN ships. no point in creating new post when theres plenty of RAAF who might want to experience a bit of work with extra pay. Someone might know better,but Army to operate Landing craft?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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As to an earlier post, most likely the RAN will stick with RAAF Air traffic controllers as on most RAN ships. no point in creating new post when theres plenty of RAAF who might want to experience a bit of work with extra pay. Someone might know better,but Army to operate Landing craft?
Probably closer to the UK model of RAF pilots undertaking RN-FAA jobs.

On another note, as per prev comments about capability etc... we looked at Wasps and they weren't best fit on mission requirements.

Larger vessels don't necessarily translate to broader capability and/or flexibility when referenced against the requirements.
 
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