Seems an odd pairing, since one is twice the tonnage of the other.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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And more than twice the price.
The pairing is not based on a precise drilling down of capability but rather which yards around the world can deliver a milspec AOR capability off the shelf. Of course the Lewis and Clark are more capable combining roughly the same fuel load as the Cantabria with 10 times more dry cargo capacity. You get what you pay for.
The Govt. seems happy with offshore supply vessels and even the Polar resupply vessel (during the southern winter) to provide the gap fill amphibious list capability. No need for anything remotely haze grey. As to the Westpac Express it lacks any sort of non-port offload capability and in that regard would be retrograde to a supply vessel with a cargo bay and a heavy crane.
Currently with the LPAs decommissioned, Choules en route, Aurora Australis doing Antarctic resupply, Ocean Protector in the Southern Ocean and Tobruk still not clear for 48 hours notice to leave the amhib lift capability is being provided by the offshore supply vessel Windermere. The advantage of leasing something like the Windermere is it only costs around $10 million for 3 1/3 months or a cyclone season.
t68
Well-Known Member
Would the 2x incomplete Henry J Kaiser class in long term storage at the James River reserve fleet,T-AO-191(Benjamin Isherwood) is said to be 95% complete and T-AO-192(Henry Eckford) 84% complete, no idea of their material condition is at this time, worth looking into?
I was under the impression the Lewis and Clarke class were built to commercial spec not milspec according to wiki.
Even if they hadn’t spent the past 20 years sitting in a river unbuilt they would not be suited as they are just tankers without significant cargo storage. Bad enough having one Sirius, two would be terrible.
This is just issues to do with hull strength to survive damage. Lewis and Clark are designed and built to support military operations and have all the stuff the RAN needs to do so. If it get hits by an Exocet its abandon ship but that’s not such a compromise in this day and age.
While the Lewis Clark is no doubt a very capable ship, I would have thought it would be very much OT for our requirements and budget ?
The Berlin certainly seems to fit the bill, although it only has 2 stations, and the Cantabria, while a little smaller does have 4. But having said that will the extra capability of a Lewis Clark be needed for the LHD's and Choules for extended operations ?
The Berlin certainly seems to fit the bill, although it only has 2 stations, and the Cantabria, while a little smaller does have 4. But having said that will the extra capability of a Lewis Clark be needed for the LHD's and Choules for extended operations ?
The Navy seems quite keen on the Lewis and Clark. I think the extra cargo capability isn’t seen as competition to the amphibious ships but rather supportive of them. The space in a Lewis and Clark used to resupply a carrier with ammunition could be used to resupply an amphibious task force with ammunition. Also when one looks at some of the new systems coming into RAN service like stand off MCM, towed sonar arrays, land attack and so on then more replenishment cargo will be needed. Also if the RAN ever plans to reload a VLS outside of port you will need something like the Lewis and Clark and its cranes to do so.
Plus of course the clear advantage of the Lewis and Clark is it can be brought via FMS with low risk of the program being screwed. The Berlin (which can always be fitted with some additional RAS stations) and Cantabaria would need to be purchased via contract with the supplier and the Aust. Govt. take onboard the program management risks.
Plus of course the clear advantage of the Lewis and Clark is it can be brought via FMS with low risk of the program being screwed. The Berlin (which can always be fitted with some additional RAS stations) and Cantabaria would need to be purchased via contract with the supplier and the Aust. Govt. take onboard the program management risks.
Good points, any idea what a L&C cost ? is it within the budget. Certainly would last the distance for us, would also make it the largest ship (displacment wise) the RAN have ever operated, Russell Crowe won't be happy
I can see how the cargo space etc would be great off-loading to the LCM's or LHC mkII, victuals ashore etcHow much longer is the Sirius meant to last ? Something along the lines of a Berlin or Cantabria would be an ideal replacment for FBW
Wiki says:
The T-AKE is a new Combat Logistics Force (CLF) Underway Replenishment Naval vessel that replaces the current capability of the Kilauea-class ammunition ship, Mars-class and Sirius-class combat stores ships, and when operating in concert with a Henry J. Kaiser-class oiler, the T-AKE replaces the Sacramento-class fast combat support ship. The T-AKE Program consists of 14 ships with a budget of approximately $4 billion.
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So quite cheap at $290 million. But what this includes I'm not sure. Abe will know.
MB
I can't see the spanish getting another major vessel sale. it would go against the competitive tension model required by govt.
although theres no shortage of happy spaniards on my floor at the moment...
I would be rather sceptical of that price, Wiki has been know to be wrong from time to time
But if it was right, we will take 2 right now Hope you are right GF ? Gotta share the love, you know give someone else a chance ? Wait a minute isn't that how Kevin Rudd got in
well, you can never second guess the Minister...Hope you are right GF ? Gotta share the love, you know give someone else a chance ? Wait a minute isn't that how Kevin Rudd got in
But, giving another major fleet asset to the spanish would trigger some unwanted attention and industry crankiness... esp as there are some very robust operator views that the spanish should not have got both lots this time around.of course that doesn't mean that everyone will loyally spruik that both classes are the best things to happen since sliced bread was invented....
the price of Lewis & Clark (TAKE-1) is 538m according to the GAO (Page 34) who i trust more than Wiki. That however is for the lead ship so you will be looking a little less than that.
The replacement for Success is expected to cost between 500-1000 million
Defence Capability Plan 2009 - Public Version - December 2010 Update
its not unbelievable that we might see 2 as a replacement for both Success and Sirius
The replacement for Success is expected to cost between 500-1000 million
Defence Capability Plan 2009 - Public Version - December 2010 Update
its not unbelievable that we might see 2 as a replacement for both Success and Sirius
ADF Choules appears to have set sail a few days ago, I reckon either Thursday or Friday.
Based on the latest AIS info, she is just past Tenerife on her way down to the Cape.
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions
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Based on the historical AIS data, she probably set sail much earlier, either on the 31 or the 1st of November.
edit:
She left on the 31st based on this information.
http://aprs.fi/?call=i/503688000&_s=ib
Based on the latest AIS info, she is just past Tenerife on her way down to the Cape.
Live Ships Map - AIS - Vessel Traffic and Positions
edit:
Based on the historical AIS data, she probably set sail much earlier, either on the 31 or the 1st of November.
edit:
She left on the 31st based on this information.
http://aprs.fi/?call=i/503688000&_s=ib
t68
Well-Known Member
HMAS Sirius launched as MV Delos in 2004 converted with RAS gear in West Australia commissioned in 2006 and expected to remain in service till 2021.
The difference between the Berlin class and the Lewis and Clarke is quite different but under the Conops for which they operate is the defining argument for which would be a success in the RAN.
Berlin class are for a smaller Navy with out the need to move large amounts of stores over long distance, whereas Lewis and Clarke are meant to work with a CVN and her escorts plus tying in with the Henry J Kaiser to bring bulk POL. A Lewis and Clark in RAN colours would free up HMAS Choules by bring in urgent but less critical stores not needed in a timelier manner, I can see the rational thinking in Abe’s thought’s on the matter.
Berlin class sats,
Displacement: 20,240 tonnes
Capacity: 9330 tonnes of fuel oil, aviation fuel and fresh water
Cargo space: 550 tonnes mixed cargo
Lewis and Clarke stats,
Displacement,40,300 tons
Max dry cargo weight 5910LT (6,005t)
Max dry cargo volume 783000cf (22,000m3)
Max cargo fuel weight 2350LT (2390t)
Max cargo fuel volume 18000 barrels (2900m3)
(DFM 10500) (JP5 7500)
It’s an interesting dilemma for RAN what is the priority in a replenishment ship, dry cargo or POL, HMAS Choules only has room for 200t of dry cargo capacity according to wiki, both replenishment ships exceed that amount by some margin.
The difference between the Berlin class and the Lewis and Clarke is quite different but under the Conops for which they operate is the defining argument for which would be a success in the RAN.
Berlin class are for a smaller Navy with out the need to move large amounts of stores over long distance, whereas Lewis and Clarke are meant to work with a CVN and her escorts plus tying in with the Henry J Kaiser to bring bulk POL. A Lewis and Clark in RAN colours would free up HMAS Choules by bring in urgent but less critical stores not needed in a timelier manner, I can see the rational thinking in Abe’s thought’s on the matter.
Berlin class sats,
Displacement: 20,240 tonnes
Capacity: 9330 tonnes of fuel oil, aviation fuel and fresh water
Cargo space: 550 tonnes mixed cargo
Lewis and Clarke stats,
Displacement,40,300 tons
Max dry cargo weight 5910LT (6,005t)
Max dry cargo volume 783000cf (22,000m3)
Max cargo fuel weight 2350LT (2390t)
Max cargo fuel volume 18000 barrels (2900m3)
(DFM 10500) (JP5 7500)
It’s an interesting dilemma for RAN what is the priority in a replenishment ship, dry cargo or POL, HMAS Choules only has room for 200t of dry cargo capacity according to wiki, both replenishment ships exceed that amount by some margin.
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I wonder why she did not transit Suez?
I don't know but going that route I think it;s a given that there will be a logistics visit to South Africa. Maybe she could round the Horn and make it to BIOT for a refuel, but I doubt it within safe margins.
Would like to see more fuel capacity into the design though for our purposes, Not only to fill up warships and LHD's, but good levels for JP5 and also diesel supplies for landed units ashore
On another note, I give up looking for some form or reference about the change in the Canberra class RAS stations from what the JC1 has ? Can anybody give me a reference on this ? I just can't see why we would even contemplate changing it
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