Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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Its not like Australia has a patent on shiney toys. How many nations have a show military with jets and ships but no substance. The LHD will be centre show peices. With 100,000t of amphibious assets thats a lot of show. I think that $1b would be better spent on a AWD rather than a 3rd LHD, but thats not as important, the LHD will look photogenic as Australia shows its 3 carriers (which is what the media will call them). The lhd also has politican friendly uses as aid, evacuations, emergency, hospital etc, there is a tremendous sense of value for the money.
I believe we are currently in an equipping phase. Replacing a lot of old junk, finally working a decent set of toys. Personel I think is bigger mess that will take longer to sort out. However, thats a harder sell for the politicans because it doesn't create the photo opportunities. We are nearing the end of that. We are getting a lot of pretty Gucci kit if all that is talked about is being delivered. Hopefully some money is allocated to retain key personel, training/developing (2 different things), encouraging the right applicants etc.
However I have deep fears for the region. We are not getting this stuff for fashion. Some pretty well connected people really fear for our region, and our big powerful friend looks like rolling over in his bed, shifting the international landscape as a large and mysterious newcomer sets up shop. And his solution seems to send advisiors until they outnumber the locals and or buy it up, and they are doing it in continental scales. It makes people worried. We have been at economic war for a while with the chinese in certain areas, yet civil in others. We are appeasing on one hand, on the other, we picking up a bigger stick.
I believe we are currently in an equipping phase. Replacing a lot of old junk, finally working a decent set of toys. Personel I think is bigger mess that will take longer to sort out. However, thats a harder sell for the politicans because it doesn't create the photo opportunities. We are nearing the end of that. We are getting a lot of pretty Gucci kit if all that is talked about is being delivered. Hopefully some money is allocated to retain key personel, training/developing (2 different things), encouraging the right applicants etc.
However I have deep fears for the region. We are not getting this stuff for fashion. Some pretty well connected people really fear for our region, and our big powerful friend looks like rolling over in his bed, shifting the international landscape as a large and mysterious newcomer sets up shop. And his solution seems to send advisiors until they outnumber the locals and or buy it up, and they are doing it in continental scales. It makes people worried. We have been at economic war for a while with the chinese in certain areas, yet civil in others. We are appeasing on one hand, on the other, we picking up a bigger stick.
there are some savage lessons coming home for successive governments about the impact of some of their prev decisions.
in house sustainment by RAN engineers is but one good and now obviously visible example.
subs wouldn't be in such a pickle if common sense had prevailed - its nnot as if we can't see the same problems happening with some of our partners as well..
Whilst Aus is investing in a great deal of new shinny material, money will need to be spent to keep it at sea for a desired period. It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Coles report and how much money and reorganization is required to put things right to increase submarine availability for one. Also the plan to reform support ship repair and management practices might result in the need for a large amount of cash to be spent on new infrastructure and trained man-power.
Would it not be wise to get the planned Canberra's up and running before considering a third? The Government/military might find money would be better spent investing in more escorts and tri-service assets to go in,and on the existing hulls? Two will provide the nation with a quantum leap in capability, but this will be heavily influenced by availability of army and aviation assets to cram inside.
weegee
Active Member
Yes but getting a third Canberra would not be about running 3 at the same time from what I understand it will enable 2 ships to be constantly available all the time.
On this as well someone mentioned before about a Queen Elizabeth Class? I know on is going to be mothballed straight away but the RAN purchasing the mothballed one is not on the horizon is it? Everyone seems to be pretty certain its going to be another Canberra. When we will get a better idea of what that increase in the budget actually means?
Ozymandias
Banned Member
The Government would have to make a decision early; if they wait until after the second LHD is delivered, the Spaniards will have either moved their workforce onto a new ship, or if they are out of projects, sack a bunch.
Much cheaper to negotiate for a third now while Canberra and Adelaide are still building. This assists the shipyard with its project management and leads to economies that are lost after things wind down. Furthermore they would welcome the work. Acquiring a Queen Elizabeth is not only a pipe dream, but a very silly pipe dream I believe.
Hey mate say your polis got overly generous and bought you fullas a QE would you get it as fitted at the moment (STOBAR) or would you have it refitted to CATOBAR like the poms are now doing? Secondly IIRC the RAAF are getting the F35A so what would you fly off the QE? Just wondering.
NM
I agree and IMHO it's about time the polis this side of the ditch woke up and there is a concerted ANZAC approach to the issue. Our region is undergoing some very dynamic changes and we have problems in the South Pacific as well as issues that are festering to the north. Australia has things that some people to the north want - resources and room. NZ, resources, food production and fresh water for the taking in the medium term. NZ is also supposed to have gas & oil reserves off the South Island that are difficult to get at, but I notice the platform being developed for the gas field 124 nautical miles off the Kimberley, in cyclone alley, so that could work in the southern ocean. We also have uranium and other valuable minerals in the Southern Alps but it is inside national parks and a world heritage park.
Australia & NZ have a developing situation to their north that in the long term may well be detrimental to their national security. Australia is taking steps to deal with it, but unfortunately the1200 nautical miles of the Tasman has given the kiwi public and polis an ostrich in the sand mentality with regard to long range threats. These threats are such that they need to be addressed by both nations together, not disparately.
NM
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Ok my quip about the QE was a bit of a joke. It is not going to happen, we can't man it, we can't maintain it, we could barely fit out an airwing (of Superhornets I would presume). It may come to a suprise but the UK is not going to sell its carrier its all a bit of colour and movement as gf would say. If the RAN does buy QE, start buying gold, muntions and long term food. It would only be as a gift of the highest order for an impending situation they won't be a part of (even then it would be a burden). I regret mentioning it.
The 3rd LHD is important. While I would rank a 4th AWD higher I am not aware of the deals, negoitations, understandings that go on. Australia with 2 30,000t LHD will have something with vaugely the same capabilities as a USMC LHD (with a different focus and smaller capabilities). I am not sure completely why they want 2 x LHD's for an amphibious landing but Im assuming its out of Cosgroves plans. We cannot have 2 ships permanently avalible with only 2 ships, we need that third. With that sort of capability perhaps the US is keener to send a destroyer/cruiser than to putt around with a cruiser following a converted LST. Perhaps our ANZACII's are such capable ships they can act as mini AEGIS ships (actually not that mini) we will be fine with the three AWD and 8-9 ANZACII's. Its an area that proberly needs to be addressed, but perhaps there is a better way than building a 4th awd. We will see.
Spain would no doubt give us a fantastic deal on the 3rd LHD, as its now a volume item, it shows huge confidence in their ability to design and build these types of ships for customers. Not only that it would tie them over until they could line up some more work (ie another F-100 or another LHD build for spain or another nation). A deal too good to ignore? There is no need to wait until we have our LHD IOC. We know they will be a very capable ship, they have one we can study and train personel on. The money save buying immediately would be huge, 100's of millions.
We need to sort out the entire service, but that is no reason to not get the assets we need. If we need 2 LHD as spelt out in the whitepaper, then we need the 3rd. Money looks like being made for it. We will see what happens.
It is clear there are some people very concerned with what happening, they may just be paranoid, but then the paranoia is spreading or in control because billions are being allocated out of a tight budget in tight times. China seems to be losing the economic absorption of Australian resource companies. Will they start stockpiling ore and energy again? The region is extremely fragile and there are many ways to make things annoying for us, and advantagous for them. A nation in chaos, with a short term leader, strikes a deal with the chinese. Once they are in, they won't leave. China has been talking to many nations about basing and resources. The Africa experiment is an interesting tale to anyone who listens.
I know the Australian government is well aware of whats happening in Africa, and should be really worried about it happening in SEA. We are not preparing for a conventional war, but for hearts and minds before it turns SEA into a soviet bloc style extension of china. We need a clean, secure, safe and stable region. To do that we need large peacemaking amphibs. Not to invade or attack, but to secure.
meatshield
Active Member
Interesting read.
I think the navy is going be to very busy in the future. They need to get their act together!
I think the navy is going be to very busy in the future. They need to get their act together!
There are some interesting what if's on the horizon, which could impact future decisions based on where cash needs to be diverted.
Buying three Canberra's makes complete sense if the plan is to have two available 360 days of the year. Two hulls (unless joined at hip) operating independently will need dedicated escorts (AAW/ASW). With only three AAW's planned how can Aus guarantee coverage during an unforeseen contingency unless you permanently twin one AAW with each Canberra? Will it be Aus policy to have the amphibs + escorts accompanied by a dedicated Collins class when operationally deployed, could this be achieved based on current availability? If the PRC is front and centre with regard to Oz's future strategic concerns then assigning a Collins to any high-profile Canberra class deployment in the region would be a base level requirement to keep taps on any PRC shadowing subs.
What happens if the Cole report recommends the Collins replacement be brought forward with US help? How will this impact available funds for additional surface combatants?
What happens if the F35A costs escalate to the point where partners start to withdraw - will Aus seriously consider switching to SH? If so can savings be diverted to other capital projects, such as another AAW on top of another Canberra?
With so few AAW platforms planned, would it not be prudent to allocate additional funds to improving the current Canberra's self-defense fit - RAM or similar system for example?
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And there will be some surplus Mk 41 8 cell sets available when the FFG's pay off
As the Canberra Class represents Australia's future capital ships, installing some form of self-defense missile system appears a relatively cheap no-brainer and brings a bit of flexibility to the task force commander if he's forced to send his escorting AsW frigates away chasing a sub contact leaving in a worst case scenario only a single Hobart to protect the amphib group (Canberra + Bay) from air attack.
I really cant see a third canberra, no mater how hard I squint my eyes.
2 Canberra's and a Bay class would move a brigade. To support a brigade O/S for any length of time, the Army would need 4 regular Brigades. Minimum of 8 Bns. de-link 8/9 and or bring 4RAR back on line. that would mean that Avn would need more helo,s NH90's and Tigers. Navy would also need more NH 90,s. Air force would need more MRT,s to support the assets. A4th AWD would be desirable. More combat engineers,Aty ,Armour and logistics will be needed.
3rd Canberra .....not going to happen.
2 Canberra's and a Bay class would move a brigade. To support a brigade O/S for any length of time, the Army would need 4 regular Brigades. Minimum of 8 Bns. de-link 8/9 and or bring 4RAR back on line. that would mean that Avn would need more helo,s NH90's and Tigers. Navy would also need more NH 90,s. Air force would need more MRT,s to support the assets. A4th AWD would be desirable. More combat engineers,Aty ,Armour and logistics will be needed.
3rd Canberra .....not going to happen.
i was waiting for someone to do the reality check and crunch up the logistics.
better late than never. thanks for trying to bring the discussion back with real world constraints
hahaha! How is TS 11 trating you?
Ive been enjoying watching the F15,s fly over work.
Ive been enjoying watching the F15,s fly over work.
I would like to see on paper what a proposed Aussie ARG would realistically comprise based on the proposed orbat once the Canberra's and Hobarts are operational:
Immediate (72 hours notice to move):
1 x Canberra (Tiger + NH90's 1 x sqn SASR or 1 x Sqn Commando complete with light vehicles, RAR light infantry battalion group (medical/engineers/sigs/logistics)
1 x Bay (RAR battalion++, LAV, Bushmaster + 155mm light gun)
1 x DDG
2 x FFG
1 x SSG
1 x Tanker
1 x Replenishment vessel
2 x MCM?
Reserve (30-days notice to move):
1 x Canberra (Tiger + NH90's 1 x sqn SASR or 1 x Sqn Commando complete with light vehicles, RAR battalion group)
1 x Roll-on, Roll-off (RAR Mech Company Group ++, M1A2/APC)
1 x DDG
2 x FFG
1 x SSG?
1 x Tanker
1 x Replenishment vessel
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