Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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StingrayOZ

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On a somewhat related note, does anyone know if there is any substantial physical / weight difference between ESSM and ESSM Block II? Or are they more or less the same, being able to mix and match perhaps with existing ESSM rounds?
About 16-20 kg per missile. From the information below, which seems inline with the physical changes.
BlkII should be able to be deployed on pretty much anything BlkI was on. But its that small growth into margins again.
The Mk29 launcher was identified as not compatible without upgrade (This Bolt-On Launcher Can Give Nearly Any Ship The Same Weaponry As A U.S. Navy Destroyer)

There are new launcher types that probably weren't fully available when some of the Anzac upgrades were assessed and spec. Mk56 launchers should be lighter than Mk41. Exls even more flexible. But I am not sure they solve the fundamental problem. Harpoon is dated and long term, probably not something to be fielded at all in 2030-2040 off a ship. NSM would be a logical fit for an Anzac type vessel if antishipping is still desired, perhaps just 4. They bolt on bolt off, could be used across the pool. But NSM and CAMM are both euro solutions, and the RAN has tended to avoid them.

The Anzacs are in the water and will be around for many years anyway you cut it. *if* they could be fitted with a 2nd launcher and towed array and new ASM they would be quite a gadget.

I am very doubtful the Anzacs can be developed effectively much further, we will be lucky IMO to keep them relevant. Something will have to give on that platform, and we may need to accept loss in one of its roles to improve another.

From:
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JohnJT

Active Member
NSM would be a logical fit for an Anzac type vessel if antishipping is still desired, perhaps just 4. They bolt on bolt off, could be used across the pool. But NSM and CAMM are both euro solutions, and the RAN has tended to avoid them.

The Anzacs are in the water and will be around for many years anyway you cut it. *if* they could be fitted with a 2nd launcher and towed array and new ASM they would be quite a gadget.
NSM may be a European missile, but with it now operational with the USN and being actively marketed around the world by Raytheon, it may as well be an American missile. NSM would be perfect for the Anzacs. It's significantly lighter than Harpoon, so you'd get a much more capable missile and save top weight at the same time.
 

Git_Kraken

Active Member
I am very doubtful the Anzacs can be developed effectively much further, we will be lucky IMO to keep them relevant. Something will have to give on that platform, and we may need to accept loss in one of its roles to improve another.
I think ANZAC's as part of a TG centered around a Hobart or helping a US task group will do just fine for a while still, at least until the Hunters start hitting the water. Their sensor suite combined with ESSM Blk II will protect them quite well under a Hobarts AAW cover. ANZACs as ASW are still quite valuable.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
As of today we only have 3types of hull made in Australia
Arafuras, evolved and guardian
If you fight the next war with what you have not what you wish for,
Could any of the aforementioned missiles be retrofitted to those hulls ?
Time is quickening
The fitting of extra weapon systems to the RAN Patrol Vessels has been discussed ad nauseam on this thread, have a read back through it and you will get the answers you are looking for.
 

ngatimozart

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There is somewhere in the vicinity of over 100 years of experience amongst the Defpros on operating, procurement and maintenance of RAN Vessels.
*Short of serving in the RAN.
Well over a 100 years. Some of them served with Nelson at Trafalgar and a couple of them served on Noah's Ark, with one being the Bosun and the other the Navigator. :cool:
 

CJR

Active Member
Could any of the aforementioned missiles be retrofitted to those hulls ?
Arafuras? Fitting a brace of Harpoon/NSM class AShMs looks fairly doable (as per the Darussalam-class). Fitting a meaningful AA point defence capability (minimum 8 cell VLS and radars) looks impossible, but a minimal CIWS fit (Phalanx or Sea RAM) might be doable. In either case, as a slow OPV the class would not be a useful frontline combatant in any high intensity fight (too slow to close within missile range if the enemy doesn't want to let ya, too poorly defended to survive if there's anything coming the other way...).

Armidales/Capes? You might be just barely be able to jam a 2-4 Harpoon/NSM clas AShMs aboard, probably at the cost of landing the vessels' RHIBs (there's VERY little free deck space). But the classes are too slow for fast attack in 'green waters' and too small for serious high seas operations.

Guardians? Just too bloody small.

If I was thinking about missile armament for any of these classes I'd be inclined to suggest a containerized setup with something like Spike-NLOS... Good for busting small craft (say, a RHIB full of commandoes or a Dhow full of pirates); useful for precision fire-support against shore targets and relatively cheap.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
NSM may be a European missile, but with it now operational with the USN and being actively marketed around the world by Raytheon, it may as well be an American missile. NSM would be perfect for the Anzacs. It's significantly lighter than Harpoon, so you'd get a much more capable missile and save top weight at the same time.
Which also reflects how things have evolved since the original refit.

I also tend to see NSM having a space in many Navies as its a different weight class and type from TLAM and LRASM. How long will we be putting Harpoon on Hobarts for, and launching the Hunters in 2030+ with Harpoon seems unlikely.

Anzac with ESSM BlkII and say NSM, is still a significantly capable ship, particularly with its radar, sonar, embarked MH60R. Throwing more time, money and engineering at this platform to some how gain, a whole new level, fit a whole new type of weapon system, IMO is perhaps counter productive for the RAN and the platform. As time goes on these will be very much secondary and supporting platforms.

Well over a 100 years. Some of them served with Nelson at Trafalgar and a couple of them served on Noah's Ark, with one being the Bosun and the other the Navigator.
Not to sharpen the point, but there is a group of spritely ex-RAN here that any two person combination would be more than 100 years pro maritime exp. A few may have even served with John Browne, who was a powder monkey during Nelsons time.. Apparently rum, sunshine and gunpowder are the elixirs.


I would hazard there is more than 100 years of DT forum experience, in active members in this thread.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well over a 100 years. Some of them served with Nelson at Trafalgar and a couple of them served on Noah's Ark, with one being the Bosun and the other the Navigator. :cool:
I was not with Nelson, it only seems like that. 55 years in my case (two generations of ANZAC and Hobart, three of Sydney...).

NO of the Ark should be sacked - he ran aground.
 

ddxx

Well-Known Member
The article above, published in The Australian, is based on this article from the ADM website:


The ADM article is a bit more detailed.
Yes - I’ve read that one too. The extra depth beyond the key points is rather minimal - a result of the bizarre comms stranglehold the current gov desires over defence. Not for security, but for politics.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Actually it's Peter Dutton who has instituted the comms blackout right across Defence and the ADF. He's been pretty strict about it and he instituted as soon as he started the job.
Dutton missed this one!


Wouldn't want the world to know we have commissioned two supply ships.

Trust there is some good weather out west for the commissioning service.
Maybe no exotic dancers this time!


Regards S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Burkes radar is also located very low on the ship.
This reflects USN capability and strategy. With ~20 carriers, numerous sats, large radars on large ships, its unlikely a Burke will be bumbling around relying only on its mast radar for situational awareness. Burkes are built around one of their primary jobs, being a carrier escort. Huge magazine for defence, light antishipping capability. The US has other assets that can do antishipping or land strike.

The Japanese Maya and Atago modified the mast structure to place it up higher.
I tend to refer back to the SEA 4000 project timeline, not so much for various completion dates, but for when certain planning, contracting and work start dates because they can provide a rough framework for how long various activities can take, prior to actual construction of a modern naval vessel commences
I get that, But at the same time I don't think we need to be limited by a near 20 year project, and intend future projects get completed in the same timeframe. The FFG and Anzacs were completed much quicker overall as I recall.

Anzac design was signed off/selected in 1989, and HMAS Anzac was laid down 1993, launched in 1994 and commissioned 1996. With a ship coming basically every year after that. Its still a 10 year program, and for a smaller, simpler ship.

Can someone enlighten me where the 32 VLS figure for the Hunter class comes from?
I don't believe there is anything official and final other than the models presented in both CGI and on display. None of which confirms anything.

On cell count... The Americans looked at what would be required to increase their Constellation..
To grow from a 32 Cell VLS to a 48 Cell VLS necessitates an increase in the length of the ship with a small beam increase and roughly a 200-ton increase in full load displacement. This will require a resizing of the ship, readdressing stability and seakeeping analyses, and adapting ship services to accommodate the additional 16 VLS cells.

A change of this nature would unnecessarily delay detail design by causing significant disruption to ship designs. Particularly the smaller ship designs. Potential competitors have already completed their Conceptual Designs and are entering the Detail Design and Construction competition with ship designs set to accommodate 32 cells.

So you either start building immediately but with a smaller VLS count, or you would have a delay while the ship is essentially redesigned around a larger loadout. Also again looking at the Constellation class, they are fitting with 16 NSM box launchers, so its antishipping capability has doubled over existing ships.

Hunter models have been produced with 32 VLS. However, we know that the RAN ship is likely to significant change from early CGI and physical models as its design has evolved.

IMO 48 isn't a magical VLS number either. If you believe the RAN is short of VLS then adding a handful (8 or 16) more won't cut it. Build a large cruiser with ~100 VLS. Every ship could do with 8 more something. But that's an incremental thing and doesn't change the balance of play.

The Hunter even with 32VLS will be as well armed for air defence as any of the six Japanese destroyers Akizuki or Asahi class (2009-2019) or the six Korean Chungmungong Yi Sun-sin class (2002-2008).
 
I just can't see the logic in building a 10,000+ tonne surface combatant with the latest version of AEGIS, and a super capable radar to then only fit 32 cells. The balancing act of fitting SM-6/SM-2/ESSM in useful quantities alone would be difficult and you'd essentially be ruling out loading any of the planned future weapons such as TLAM.
Common sense would agree with you there ddxx. Hopefully the delays are associated with trying to figure out how to fit another 16+ cells
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Common sense would agree with you there ddxx. Hopefully the delays are associated with trying to figure out how to fit another 16+ cells
Common sense should consider that the combination of Aegis, and a powerful radar make Hunter a force multiplier in ways that another dozen VLS doesn't. Australia is full speed ahead developing a true all-services,all-arms Defence force.

As just the simplest example, for those using common sense and doing their best to ignore any complexity, consider that a Hunter off shore with its powerful radar and sophisticated combat system can have land based and air borne weapons at its call, or cooperate with other RAN vessels.

Without getting rid of flex spaces, RHIBs, UAVs or special forces accommodation.

oldsig
 

Git_Kraken

Active Member
Where do you get your factor of 4 from? The other issue is it does not automatically mean the carriage of ballast (warships carry very little as built) as other equipment may be redistributed to address some of the weight difference. The additional beam is going have a significant difference here as well as it drives transverse stability as it changes the centre of buoyance when the vessel is heeled compared to the narrower ship.

Looking at your factor of 4 .... the impact depends on the mass that is moved in the design and the distance over the final mass. This cannot be guessed unless you have the full details of the UK T26 to compare to the Hunter Class. We simply do not have this. At a rough guess (very speculative and only given as an example) the addition of 800 in the bottom of the ship could give a reduction in the CoG (GG1) of about 0.4 to 0.5m ... that is a lot noting the minimum GM of a cargo ship is set at 0.15m (ships should not be too tender but being stiff is a bad thing as well). Move 100 tonnes by 12 m on a 10000 tonne ships gives you a change of 0.12m (noting this static not dynamic stability.

As I said ... just an example
Arbitrary number (aka assumption math) pulled from my shipbuilding/design experience to give an example of how extreme adding weight up high can affect design margins. On one ship we added less than a ton of equipment to the top of the mast. It equated to 16 ton of ballast. Had to reinforce the mast, change the ladder arrangement, cooling for the equipment... As you noted dynamic stability is much more complicated than static and have greater impacts.

The carriage of ballast is actually very common on warships... that are converted from another design. If the Hunter was designed from the keel up there would likely be little to no wasted tonnage. As it's a modification of someone else's design then there will automatically be wasted tonnage, unless Australia is redesigning all the internal spaces. And then what was the point in buying someone else's design?

Maybe I'm wrong and the mast isn't the problem. Someone else tell me why the ship is 1000+ tons heavier.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With the need to cover a lot of equipment high up, and the decreased weight of machinery, some of which (as in the T23) can be carried quite high, many warship designs these days start off with a requirement for ballast built in as part of the design
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Maybe I'm wrong and the mast isn't the problem. Someone else tell me why the ship is 1000+ tons heavier.
I'm sure the mast is around some of the growth and head ache. Its a huge volume, presumably with significant mass inside, up very high, basically as high as you can make it.

The story last year identified that as one of the main issues. However accurate that report is.

But then pretty the RAN has ambitious targets for range, speed, noise, endurance. The radar size isn't the only issue, the radars power and cooling are noted as being also demanding. So you need more power generation more thermal capability, more likely more fuel.

But then what is more important? Seeing the target(s) would have to be one of the most important aspects of being a warship. They higher you place it, the more power you need to make it effective at the new horizon range.

I am curious why they apparently went for a reprofiling of the hull, and we don't yet know the beam changes, and apparently no change in length. This would certainly seem to make the ship very broad and beamy, and the type 26 hull wasn't exactly dart like to begin with. Why aren't we evolving in length? 149m seems short for a 10,000t "frigate"
Looking at the big picture I think we are doing pretty well indeed.
I note we were one of the earliest to sign onto the P8, and we have a significant number as well. Also our triton acquisition. Synergy with the E7 as well. Its all good. G550 doing their elint thing as well.

I just wished we had more antishipping capability integrated into the F-35 and a sub and ship building program that was completely sorted. While I am happy with the platforms we are talking about the next 10 years may prove critical. I guess that is the concern. If in the next 5 years things were to go from diplomatic and economic tension to actual shooting.
 
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