Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Same pattern as the Army's but different colours of course.
Question for our RAN Defpros, is there any real advantage to Sailors wearing Cammos on board Ship?
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Question for our RAN Defpros, is there any real advantage to Sailors wearing Cammos on board Ship?
As someone who went from wearing plain Navy blue 8s rig to plain grey overalls, yes there is, it simply looks like a military rig as opposed to a mechanic's outfit. Plenty of research into how looking and feeling a certain way in clothes can impact on how you behave. I don't get why this question keeps coming up, I don't see RAAFies getting asked why they need to wear blue camo on an airbase.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply and yes it is a good point about looking and feeling right. I was in the ARA when we switched from Greens to Camms and nobody missed the Greens.
I’m surprised that any navy would wear camo at sea.
I think we should have taken the lead from AMSA and ensured that a seagoing uniform included an element of HIVIS, a reflective band is insufficient. Camo makes spotting “man overboard” or battle damage survivors more difficult in a seaway.
What personnel wear ashore or in harbour is irrelevant to safety so I have no problem with the new uniforms.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
ADMk2 made the following comment in the fantasy RAN Thread - I think it deserves to be here in the real RAN Thread (not the BS Thread):
But ...
I think it’s fair to say that operations by a future RAN task group may not always involve amphibious operations, does that mean you leave the LHDs tied up at home? No.
I can easily envisage in those circumstances that the LHDs can operate in the task group as ASW carriers.
The 2020 DSU has a project to replace the RAN fleet of MRH90 with an expanded fleet of support and logistics helicopters, with commonality with existing RAN helicopters, see the following ADBR article:
adbr.com.au
The obvious candidate for that role would be the MH-60S, but the S is now out of production, on the other hand MH-60R is still in production.
Obviously the R is more expensive than S, and primarily focused on ASW and surface warfare roles, but with removal of the ASW equipment (which can be swapped in and out) the cabin can be used for utility tasks, plus under slung cargo too.
The procurement of 8-10 or so MH-60R could provide the RAN with both a medium utility helicopter, and also an increased ASW capability and 100% commonality with the existing Romeo fleet too.
Food for thought?
Cheers,
Firstly, yes the Canberra class LHDs have a primary amphibious role, and that’s not to be diluted or negatively impacted.
But ...
I think it’s fair to say that operations by a future RAN task group may not always involve amphibious operations, does that mean you leave the LHDs tied up at home? No.
I can easily envisage in those circumstances that the LHDs can operate in the task group as ASW carriers.
The 2020 DSU has a project to replace the RAN fleet of MRH90 with an expanded fleet of support and logistics helicopters, with commonality with existing RAN helicopters, see the following ADBR article:
Navy to get new utility helicopter | ADBR
The Royal Australian Navy’s 808SQN based at HMAS Albatross near Nowra will soon replace its Airbus MRH 90 helicopters with a new utility helicopter. As forecast in the Government’s 2020…
adbr.com.au
The obvious candidate for that role would be the MH-60S, but the S is now out of production, on the other hand MH-60R is still in production.
Obviously the R is more expensive than S, and primarily focused on ASW and surface warfare roles, but with removal of the ASW equipment (which can be swapped in and out) the cabin can be used for utility tasks, plus under slung cargo too.
The procurement of 8-10 or so MH-60R could provide the RAN with both a medium utility helicopter, and also an increased ASW capability and 100% commonality with the existing Romeo fleet too.
Food for thought?
Cheers,
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Doesn't the R model only have one Door? which would limit its Utility.ADMk2 made the following comment in the fantasy RAN Thread - I think it deserves to be here in the real RAN Thread (not the BS Thread):
Firstly, yes the Canberra class LHDs have a primary amphibious role, and that’s not to be diluted or negatively impacted.
But ...
I think it’s fair to say that operations by a future RAN task group may not always involve amphibious operations, does that mean you leave the LHDs tied up at home? No.
I can easily envisage in those circumstances that the LHDs can operate in the task group as ASW carriers.
The 2020 DSU has a project to replace the RAN fleet of MRH90 with an expanded fleet of support and logistics helicopters, with commonality with existing RAN helicopters, see the following ADBR article:
Navy to get new utility helicopter | ADBR
The Royal Australian Navy’s 808SQN based at HMAS Albatross near Nowra will soon replace its Airbus MRH 90 helicopters with a new utility helicopter. As forecast in the Government’s 2020…
The obvious candidate for that role would be the MH-60S, but the S is now out of production, on the other hand MH-60R is still in production.
Obviously the R is more expensive than S, and primarily focused on ASW and surface warfare roles, but with removal of the ASW equipment (which can be swapped in and out) the cabin can be used for utility tasks, plus under slung cargo too.
The procurement of 8-10 or so MH-60R could provide the RAN with both a medium utility helicopter, and also an increased ASW capability and 100% commonality with the existing Romeo fleet too.
Food for thought?
Cheers,
If you want them as utility cabs then just don't buy the additional sets of ASW gear. Apart from the location of the tail wheel, you've effectively got a S then and the tailwheel location is not a benefit to us. It wasn't to the USN, either, but it was the simplest solution for them. And yes I know there are other differences to the S including the left cargo door and a hole in the floor but they are not really significant unless you want to start minesweeping with them or carrying troops or something. We don't do the aerial tow MS (nor do the Yanks with S any more) and we've got the Army cabs if you want to move troops. It would also give more versatility in getting the ASW kit to sea if you wanted to do that at the expense of the utility role at some point,
Oh, and it probably wouldn't be all that difficult for Sikorsky to put the S back into production anyway, if you wanted to do that, given that the Blackhawk line is still hot and the S was essentially a marinised Blackhawk with USN avionics. They still have all the jigs, etc, or at least did so quite recently.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
That maybe so, but doesn’t prevent the Romeo from performing the utility role:
If the RAN wants ‘commonality’ with existing aircraft in its fleet it has two options.
Procure either S or R models, but of course S is out of production.
For Sierra the Government would need convince LM to restart the S production line (could be expensive for a relatively small production run), or procure ‘second hand’ from the USN.
Or put in an order for new Romeos which are still in production.
I know how I’d like to see my tax dollar spent.
Cheers,
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
I think an order for H-60/S-70 Helicopters for the RAN could drop at anytime in the next year or so, just going to be a matter of which model. Yes I know funding is not due till about 2025 but putting the entire MRH-90 Fleet under Army control may help with the availability issues.
If the RAN were to acquire two JSS ships, then there would be plenty of amphibious capability and the LHD could pick up an additional role. There are also smaller ships coming down to support amphibious ops.
I am curious to how the LHD's would go as ASW carriers. The new props hopefully give them a bit of added speed and reduce noise (apparently the pods are quite quiet). I presume that the dock could be used to transport large UUV and USV long distances
I would imagine ideally a Hobart class with its hawklink would be part of the task group as well.
I think regionally there would be a lot of interest in the RAN having that kind of capability. While many navies have ASW elements, they don't have enough to tie it all together as a complete end to end force. India, Malaysia, Indonesia seemed to show some interest in operating with Australia. The Japanese, while having loads of equipment and expertise would no doubt be interested in any training and developments.
The R would seem to be ideal. Any large scale lifting falls back to the Chinooks and NH90. We would only be in a better position to what we would be now.
I am curious to how the LHD's would go as ASW carriers. The new props hopefully give them a bit of added speed and reduce noise (apparently the pods are quite quiet). I presume that the dock could be used to transport large UUV and USV long distances
I would imagine ideally a Hobart class with its hawklink would be part of the task group as well.
I think regionally there would be a lot of interest in the RAN having that kind of capability. While many navies have ASW elements, they don't have enough to tie it all together as a complete end to end force. India, Malaysia, Indonesia seemed to show some interest in operating with Australia. The Japanese, while having loads of equipment and expertise would no doubt be interested in any training and developments.
The R would seem to be ideal. Any large scale lifting falls back to the Chinooks and NH90. We would only be in a better position to what we would be now.
Will be interesting how this plays out.
I thought this project may have been brought forward, with Navys MRH-90 helicopters transferred to Army giving them more redundancy and getting a larger fleet of logistic helicopters dedicated to Navy.
As mentioned, there is probably only a couple of choices with the Romeo the favorite.
Whether it comes as an ASW platform or delivered without those complex systems time will tell.
Shame the Sierra is not in production.
I wonder if there is a third way and Navy get a smaller size helicopter such as adding numbers to the winner of the special forces helicopter replacement??????
Regards S
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
LockMart/Sikorsky still has the S-70i Black Hawk in production and there are apparently maritime ops configurations available. It might be a matter of Australia specifying which specific options are desired from new production helicopters. This is of course assuming that the ADF wants/needs/can afford to order additional helicopters.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
To do what? One major role for the Navy's Utility Helicopters is as part of the resupply role from the AORs, the LHDs at times and in the future the JSS, they need to be able to move pallets from Ship to Ship and ship to Shore.
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Redlands18
Well-Known Member
There is a stated requirement for a new logistics Helicopter for the RAN to be funded around 2024-25, with an increase in numbers. There has been some talk of it being brought forward to help ease the issues with the MRH-90 fleet by transferring the 6 currently in RAN service to the Army.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
How would the LHDs go as ASW carriers?
Think a modern version of HMAS Melbourne with a deck full of Wessex ASW helicopters!!
I've had the same thoughts for some time as ADMk2 re the use of the MH-60R from the LHDs.ADMk2 made the following comment in the fantasy RAN Thread - I think it deserves to be here in the real RAN Thread (not the BS Thread):
Firstly, yes the Canberra class LHDs have a primary amphibious role, and that’s not to be diluted or negatively impacted.
But ...
I think it’s fair to say that operations by a future RAN task group may not always involve amphibious operations, does that mean you leave the LHDs tied up at home? No.
I can easily envisage in those circumstances that the LHDs can operate in the task group as ASW carriers.
The 2020 DSU has a project to replace the RAN fleet of MRH90 with an expanded fleet of support and logistics helicopters, with commonality with existing RAN helicopters, see the following ADBR article:
Navy to get new utility helicopter | ADBR
The Royal Australian Navy’s 808SQN based at HMAS Albatross near Nowra will soon replace its Airbus MRH 90 helicopters with a new utility helicopter. As forecast in the Government’s 2020…
The obvious candidate for that role would be the MH-60S, but the S is now out of production, on the other hand MH-60R is still in production.
Obviously the R is more expensive than S, and primarily focused on ASW and surface warfare roles, but with removal of the ASW equipment (which can be swapped in and out) the cabin can be used for utility tasks, plus under slung cargo too.
The procurement of 8-10 or so MH-60R could provide the RAN with both a medium utility helicopter, and also an increased ASW capability and 100% commonality with the existing Romeo fleet too.
Food for thought?
Cheers,
From looking at images of HMAS Canberra during her current Indo-Pacific-Endeavour deployment her flight deck has been empty most of the time. There has been some cross decking from her escorting frigate and from foreign units but it seems to me that a small embarked flight of Romeos would greatly enhance the capability of the task force in both the ASW and anti surface roles. Of course the number of Romeos currently in inventory would limit the size of such deployments but even a couple to reinforce those embarked on escorts would help maintain round the clock coverage.
Even when the LHDs are employed in their primary amphibious roles the Romeo would be capable of adding to the fire support for embarked forces provided by army helos as well as enhancing the ASW coverage provided by escorts.
Groundings of the MRH-90 coinciding with last two Talisman Sabre exercises have no doubt adversely effected efforts by the army to work up its helicopter force for deployment from the LHDs and have presumably also put pressure on 808 squadron on its ability to provide detachments for the LHDs. Hopefully the latter problem will be solved when the RAN gets back its own dedicated fully marinized utility helicopter rather than sharing Taipans with the army.
Tas
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Tas, I think the point that you, ADMk2 and myself are making is, no we are not suggesting changing the LHDs primary amphibious role, not at all, but there is an opportunity to expand their ASW capability.
As I mentioned above, I can very much see future operational deployments that don’t involve amphibious operations, so why not operate them as ASW carriers?
We keep hearing about the growth in submarine operations in our region, and by replacing the MRH90s with MH-60R, we can have an aircraft that can provide more depth to a task force ability to focus and respond with a greater ASW capability.
Cheers,
Ok, genuine question here:
re the RAN role of Utility helicopter, I had imagined the MRH90 to be useful hauler.
it has a large cabin, a rear ramp, it’s a decent size so can carry good weight.
I appreciate its technical dramas, but had interpreted them ‘mostly’ to be tactical issues, not particularly relevant to an A to B Utility/Lifter.
I had thought they’d suit that RAN role.
Whats the deal breaker with the MRH90 in that role?
re the RAN role of Utility helicopter, I had imagined the MRH90 to be useful hauler.
it has a large cabin, a rear ramp, it’s a decent size so can carry good weight.
I appreciate its technical dramas, but had interpreted them ‘mostly’ to be tactical issues, not particularly relevant to an A to B Utility/Lifter.
I had thought they’d suit that RAN role.
Whats the deal breaker with the MRH90 in that role?
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