Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Morgo]

Undoubtedly this is an off the peg build the only question is, will it be Astutes or Virginia's. The decision might be something like 8 x Astutes or 6 x Virginias. Some sort of ratio like that, and a decision will need to be made.

Reactors will be shipped over complete. Never need to be refuelled, and will be shipped back for decommissioning.

That would be a very very sensible approach.

 

[John Newman]

The greens are going to go ballistic. Expect Marches.

I must say I don’t give a flying f**k what the Greens think, they can go to their local park and hug a tree for all I care.

The one political party (other than the current LNP Government) that needs to be on board with this decision is the ALP.

One would have to reasonably assume in the lead up to today’s announcement that the Government has kept the ALP informed and briefed during this process, and also received bipartisan support for the switch from conventional powered to nuclear powered submarines.

I await with interest what Albo and the ALP have to say on this mornings announcement.

Cheers,

 

[spoz]

They’re saying that want the capability in service at the earliest achievable time; that probably implies at least one boat off a hot (overseas) production line. There have been indications for some time that the US would like to go back to two yards building Virginia’s, so that might be a possibility. Given the slow start to the successor SSBN in the UK, and the nearing end of Astute production that’s obviously another although a Brit design would potentially introduce a new combat system philosophy which might not be desirable.

This announcement is so paradigm changing that I wonder if a CV is next….(hat, coat,,,,)

 

[StingrayOZ]

Its not just purchase cost. Its also crewing. Not actual number of submariners, but as a comparative ratio..

6 astute = 600+ crew
8 astute = 800+
6 Virginias = 800+ crew
6 collins = 360+ crew
12 barracuda = 720+ crew.

We will definitely be building them here. Neither the UK no the US has any spare submarine build capability. US wants more submarines as it is. UK is building its SSBNs.

Its entirely possible ASC might be purchased by a US/UK entity, or operated as the do for the hunters.

The best outcome is that Osborne becomes partly integrated into the US build / support infrastructure and so we can defray some of those costs across greater volumes.

Its not just osborne. Its the whole logistics tail. Every valve, every hatch, every part. Both the UK and US are essentially production limited, adding Australia to either program allows for spares and new parts possibly faster and more builds, cheaper.

its not just about subs either.

 

[StingrayOZ]

They’re saying that want the capability in service at the earliest achievable time; that probably implies at least one boat off a hot (overseas) production line.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I would expect the first boat to perhaps be some local and overseas built segments. If the design is the same, then effectively we could start welding things up almost immediately. I would expect the whole reactor and compartment to come from overseas. It may actually be faster to do it this way.

although a Brit design would potentially introduce a new combat system philosophy which might not be desirable.

Integrating US combat system onto the Astute would not be an issue. I expect Lockmarts Australian integration program to continue. However, the US SSN program is huge. They also have new generation of subs coming down the pipe.

 

[jack412]

From what has been said after the joint video release so far. They were saying they wouldn't discount the possibility of it being a UK sub. It is going to be an 18 month evaluation on the best way to proceed.

The media release. Including 'the Feller from down under'

 

[Stampede]

Perhaps, perhaps not. I would expect the first boat to perhaps be some local and overseas built segments. If the design is the same, then effectively we could start welding things up almost immediately. I would expect the whole reactor and compartment to come from overseas. It may actually be faster to do it this way.


Integrating US combat system onto the Astute would not be an issue. I expect Lockmarts Australian integration program to continue. However, the US SSN program is huge. They also have new generation of subs coming down the pipe.

SSN for RAN

Raises so many questions across a balanced defence force and the geo political region.
I would like to be happy with the decision but are still digesting the implications.

Not sure at this stage.


Regards S

 

[Geddy]

I must say I don’t give a flying f**k what the Greens think, they can go to their local park and hug a tree for all I care.

The one political party (other than the current LNP Government) that needs to be on board with this decision is the ALP.

One would have to reasonably assume in the lead up to today’s announcement that the Government has kept the ALP informed and briefed during this process, and also received bipartisan support for the switch from conventional powered to nuclear powered submarines.

I await with interest what Albo and the ALP have to say on this mornings announcement.

Cheers,

I think we should “give a flying f___” what the greens think. They’re Australian’s with a point of view that is mainstream.
The political reality is that Labor will support this because of the strategic necessity and the Greens probably won’t. That’s fine, we are a democracy.

The more I think about this the more intriguing the choice between the Astute and the Virginia class is. I’d agree that 6-8 subs is most likely. I’ve seen nothing released about a selection timetable but it will have to happen fast. Osborne will be in chaos right now….

 

[hairyman]

What else will we get? What aircraft may now be considered for the RAAF?

 

[Redlands18]

What else will we get? What aircraft may now be considered for the RAAF?

Funding is still an issue, the Sub fleet is budgeted for, irrespective of which design we end up with, the only change will be numbers. There is no funding budgeted for a sqn of B-21s.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Greens leader was on ABC TV this morning.. Rah rah floating Chernobyl's.. But was pleading to the labor party to oppose it. Which means they aren't, which means the greens are irrelevant.

While Australia might have fierce internal debate, our external relationships are very important. Annoying a US (democratic) administration and a UK administration, while throwing the subs under yet another bus is not going to be popular with anyone. I don't actually see this getting a whole lot of negative from the voters.

Its more than subs. Its a whole alliance thing.

Probably a bigger fall out outside of Australia...

What of ANZUS now?
Can Australian subs go to New Zealand?
Will NZ cease defence ties with Australia and its nuclear ways?
I imagine Canadians feel a bit left out as well.
The French are looking like right idiots.

 

[oldsig127]

Can Australian subs go to New Zealand?
Will NZ cease defence ties with Australia and its nuclear ways?
I imagine Canadians feel a bit left out as well.
The French are looking like right idiots.

Do we really care any more? I'm not being entirely flippant. There comes a time when we need to pull on big boy's pants and do what we feel is right, without always feeling we need to pander to others whose actions look (at best) like opting out of reciprocal assistance in Defence, and at worst as freeloading.

The end of the cringe, so to speak.

oldsig

 

[StingrayOZ]

Do we really care any more? I'm not being entirely flippant. There comes a time when we need to pull on big boy's pants and do what we feel is right, without always feeling we need to pander to others whose actions look (at best) like opting out of reciprocal assistance in Defence, and at worst as freeloading.

No. No we don't. Frankly you are either in the boat with us, or out of the boat.

As I watched the three leaders announce it, Australia really spent no time placating anyone specifically. Biden mentioned the French and all the other alliances.

Still interesting ramifications.

 

[Redlands18]

Greens leader was on ABC TV this morning.. Rah rah floating Chernobyl's.. But was pleading to the labor party to oppose it. Which means they aren't, which means the greens are irrelevant.

While Australia might have fierce internal debate, our external relationships are very important. Annoying a US (democratic) administration and a UK administration, while throwing the subs under yet another bus is not going to be popular with anyone. I don't actually see this getting a whole lot of negative from the voters.

Its more than subs. Its a whole alliance thing.

Probably a bigger fall out outside of Australia...

What of ANZUS now?
Can Australian subs go to New Zealand?
Will NZ cease defence ties with Australia and its nuclear ways?
I imagine Canadians feel a bit left out as well.
The French are looking like right idiots.

Australia looks to buy nuclear-powered submarines | ADBR

The Australian, US, and UK governments have jointly announced the formation of a closer trilateral military relationship, and that Australia will look to buy a fleet of nuclear-powered, conventionally-armed attack…

adbr.com.au

Actually the ADBR article today says that senior Opposition leaders were invited to last nights meeting.

 

[Geddy]

Greens leader was on ABC TV this morning.. Rah rah floating Chernobyl's.. But was pleading to the labor party to oppose it. Which means they aren't, which means the greens are irrelevant.

While Australia might have fierce internal debate, our external relationships are very important. Annoying a US (democratic) administration and a UK administration, while throwing the subs under yet another bus is not going to be popular with anyone. I don't actually see this getting a whole lot of negative from the voters.

Its more than subs. Its a whole alliance thing.

Probably a bigger fall out outside of Australia...

What of ANZUS now?
Can Australian subs go to New Zealand?
Will NZ cease defence ties with Australia and its nuclear ways?
I imagine Canadians feel a bit left out as well.
The French are looking like right idiots.

Don’t know that I’d agree the Greens are irrelevant, they’re entitled to a voice given they have legitimate security and other concerns. I do think they are wrong on nuclear subs, but many of the public will listen to them.

ANZUS is still going to be relevant because we have to have NZ in the fold even if they won’t let our subs dock…. I bet they are secretly happy about the decision however.

As for the French, it’s worth $400m to get out of this, the only ones upset about it will be Adelaide pizza shop owners.

 

[Redlands18]

Don’t know that I’d agree the Greens are irrelevant, they’re entitled to a voice given they have legitimate security and other concerns. I do think they are wrong on nuclear subs, but many of the public will listen to them.

ANZUS is still going to be relevant because we have to have NZ in the fold even if they won’t let our subs dock…. I bet they are secretly happy about the decision however.

As for the French, it’s worth $400m to get out of this, the only ones upset about it will be Adelaide pizza shop owners.

Americans don't eat Pizza?

 

[alexsa]

No. No we don't. Frankly you are either in the boat with us, or out of the boat.

As I watched the three leaders announce it, Australia really spent no time placating anyone specifically. Biden mentioned the French and all the other alliances.

Still interesting ramifications.

It does seem to suggest a UK boat but I do wonder if the Barracuda is still in (it appears this will not be the case)

The opposition must be onboard..... or this would be a dead duck.

Quite a stunning decisions .... but it does mean moving to a proven boat if the Astute is to be the model employed.

 

[John Newman]

I think we should “give a flying f___” what the greens think. They’re Australian’s with a point of view that is mainstream.
The political reality is that Labor will support this because of the strategic necessity and the Greens probably won’t. That’s fine, we are a democracy.

The more I think about this the more intriguing the choice between the Astute and the Virginia class is. I’d agree that 6-8 subs is most likely. I’ve seen nothing released about a selection timetable but it will have to happen fast. Osborne will be in chaos right now….

I stand by my comment, I don’t give a flying f**k what the Greens think, and yes we do live in a democracy.

But a democracy doesn’t require 100% of people to all agree with each other, that never happens, majority rules, even if its 51/49.

 

[Geddy]

My money is on the Astute class with a US combat system. Slightly smaller and with a smaller crew than the Virginia class vessels. Also it’s a mature sub with the final 2 examples being built now. Perhaps there is some spare capacity to build reactors..?

 

[rand0m]

"The first major initiave of AUKUS" - any guesses as to what other initiaves will entail?