I’m no ship builder but I would not want to go down that track. The risk would be massive, essentially it would require the ship to be cut in half. There would be concerns regarding stability and overall integration of pretty much most systems. The risk would be that if it was unsuccessful, we loose one frigate and a tonne of $$$.A question re the ANZAC Class
How difficult would it be to add a black extension to this class of ship?
At a guess, I'd suggest just forward of the Bridge.
Given the ship appears to have "maxed out" and yet will still be in service for many years to come is this feasible?
HMAS Perth is now scheduled to retire in 2043.
That's over two decades away!
With the first of the Hunter Class over a decade away, the ANZAC's will be shouldering much of the load and be asked to perform in a maritime realm beyond their design and size.
They will to asked to be a Hunter Class performer in a 4000t hull.
They need help!
Suggest some growth over and above their current refits.
Compared to the Hobart / Hunter Classes they lack Phalanx and a pair of medium cal cannons.
A towed array is yet to be fitted and their SAM capacity could and should be improved with an additional Mk 41 VLS.
Missile load out is a BIG part of the ADF short and long term calculus.
Space and weight is needed.
To keep costs to a minimum, what sized block could be added, without the need to tinker with the ships power plant/ electric etc.
Ideally the Block would be sufficient to house the VLS, additional berths ,hotel services and provide buoyancy for the deficient weapons to be distributed appropriately across the ship.
Is this a big ask or not?
The alternative is the fleet as is in the 2020's and at best half a dozen destroyers in the 2030's.
The ANZAC's will look challenged in this decade if not, realistically now.
Regards S
Not as easy as it may seem ... and it will be expensive and time consuming and may ultimately make things worse.A question re the ANZAC Class
How difficult would it be to add a black extension to this class of ship?
At a guess, I'd suggest just forward of the Bridge.
Given the ship appears to have "maxed out" and yet will still be in service for many years to come is this feasible?
HMAS Perth is now scheduled to retire in 2043.
That's over two decades away!
With the first of the Hunter Class over a decade away, the ANZAC's will be shouldering much of the load and be asked to perform in a maritime realm beyond their design and size.
They will to asked to be a Hunter Class performer in a 4000t hull.
They need help!
Suggest some growth over and above their current refits.
Compared to the Hobart / Hunter Classes they lack Phalanx and a pair of medium cal cannons.
A towed array is yet to be fitted and their SAM capacity could and should be improved with an additional Mk 41 VLS.
Missile load out is a BIG part of the ADF short and long term calculus.
Space and weight is needed.
To keep costs to a minimum, what sized block could be added, without the need to tinker with the ships power plant/ electric etc.
Ideally the Block would be sufficient to house the VLS, additional berths ,hotel services and provide buoyancy for the deficient weapons to be distributed appropriately across the ship.
Is this a big ask or not?
The alternative is the fleet as is in the 2020's and at best half a dozen destroyers in the 2030's.
The ANZAC's will look challenged in this decade if not, realistically now.
Regards S
Thanks for the detailed post and linksNot as easy as it may seem ... and it will be expensive and time consuming and may ultimately make things worse.
Firstly .... if you are adding a plug into the ship then it is going to have to be close to amidships where the hull form is at its widest. if you go anywhere else then the fact the beam is diminishing in either direction means that you would mess with the hull form and water flow and structural strength (as the flow of stress will not be linear. Draw a line of the hull form water line and try putting a plug in forward while maintaining that shape. It does not work.
Extension to the bow (meaning a replacement ... again to have an uninterrupted hull form) or the stern may be possible but of limited utility. Merchant ships are easier to plug as they have a consistent hull shape for quite a bit of their length.
Coefficients of Form - Ship's Waterplane, Block, Midship and Prismatic Coefficient (cultofsea.com)
looking at a handy size bulker you can see from the design about a third of the length of the ship has a consistent form. This is not true of destroyers and frigates noting they have a small block coefficient there is very little length with the same shape. Have a look at the T26 being joined up as an example.
design-of-30000-dwt-and-53000-dwt-bulk-carriers-using-advanced-computer-design-softwares.pdf (longdom.org)
Finally messing about with weights is fraught with danger. Useful example below.
History and Technology - Understanding Block Coefficients - NavWeaps
Another possibility might be, is there a technical way to claw back some margin (even if it is extremely expensive and under less stringent “strategic” circumstances perhaps not worth the cost…) in the existing design so that the SWAP originally intended for a 2x 8 cell Mk.41 VL system and other enhancements (Phalanx, ESSM Block II, medium calibre guns, towed sonar array, new EW capability, new UAV capability, new RHIB boats, new type of ASM etc) might be able to be employed?Thanks for the detailed post and links
Much appreciated.
The ANZAC's have been placed up on the blocks a number of times already for refits, so maybe if an extension could of been done it would have.
With computer modeling so good now days I would of hoped there was some scope for this option.
Was the main challenge financial or engineering?
The former we can fix, the later looks like the deal breaker.
From the link
I liked the challenged example of the Iowa Class and also the fowl water from toilet discharge following the ship in stagnant water.
Certainly don't want that !
Cheers
Regards S
I wonder how much it would cost to build a virtual ANZAC Class frigate? It would then be possible to undertake the enhancements including a hull plug to determine what the actual impacts upon the ship's stability, safety, sea keeping etc., using the virtual ship. This would enable most problems to be discovered and rectified before any decisions are made to start cutting hulls.Another possibility might be, is there a technical way to claw back some margin (even if it is extremely expensive and under less stringent “strategic” circumstances perhaps not worth the cost…) in the existing design so that the SWAP originally intended for a 2x 8 cell Mk.41 VL system and other enhancements (Phalanx, ESSM Block II, medium calibre guns, towed sonar array, new EW capability, new UAV capability, new RHIB boats, new type of ASM etc) might be able to be employed?
I am aware there are stability issues, centre of gravity and so on with this design, but if these vessels are to serve another 20 + years and potentially be pitched into a level of conflict they were never really conceived for, such enhancements may be necessary?
Actually it probably wouldn't be that expensive or even time consuming. You can easily digitise existing blueprints. Come to think of it even if you haven't got access to the blue prints you could digitally scan sections of the ship.I wonder how much it would cost to build a virtual ANZAC Class frigate? It would then be possible to undertake the enhancements including a hull plug to determine what the actual impacts upon the ship's stability, safety, sea keeping etc., using the virtual ship. This would enable most problems to be discovered and rectified before any decisions are made to start cutting hulls.
They certainly are for the Hobarts, with the planned upgrade to AEGIS Baseline 9.0 and addition of ESSM Block II, SM-2 Block IIIC and SM-6 Block 1A already in the planning stages. With us having joined the development program for Mk.54 Mod 2 torpedo and approved acquisitions for future ASM and “strategic strike“ weapons I’d suggest the upgrade program will be a lengthy, on-going process with significant new capabilities intended over the next decade to make these truly formidable vessels.The South African version of the Meko 200 is 3 meters longer and has a couple of hundred tons heavier than the ANZACs so maybe there is still some wiggle room in the design.
However I would think that further upgrading the Hobarts might be a bit easier.
Not sure that answering the question would really simplify matters, as there are quite a few guns/mountings which have non-deck penetrating versions.Without getting into the back forth of which guns we could replace the phalanx with just to simplify the discussion what are the existing none deck penetrating guns around and what ones are under development at present?
Makes it easier to compare possible alternatives that are on or will be on the market that could potentially fit within the area where a phalanx usually would be.
Cheers.
You do it by suffering from sleep deprivation, causing your logics circuits to begin misfiring, while you are operating a calculator...How do you fit 384 ESSM into 48 MK41 Cells? Isn't quad packed meaning 48 X 4 = 192?
Also...50Km range on ESSm is about 20-30sec flight time for a hypersonic missile and thats if engaged at the max 50km range...so not a lot of room for error there.
Yep it's a numbers game.They certainly are for the Hobarts, with the planned upgrade to AEGIS Baseline 9.0 and addition of ESSM Block II, SM-2 Block IIIC and SM-6 Block 1A already in the planning stages. With us having joined the development program for Mk.54 Mod 2 torpedo and approved acquisitions for future ASM and “strategic strike“ weapons I’d suggest the upgrade program will be a lengthy, on-going process with significant new capabilities intended over the next decade to make these truly formidable vessels.
But there is and only ever will be 3 of them and the ANZAC Class for better or worse due to current Government choices, will comprise the bulk of our surface combatant force for potentially up to the next 20 years… Given improvements such as towed sonar arrays and (apparently) ESSM Block II are already approved, I and I guess others wonder what else might be able to be done to them, to ensure they remain a viable combat capability during those years?
IIRC the issue with the RAN's ANZAC-class FFH displacement is not 'just' what the total displacement is, but also where some of that displacement is, namely topweight. As I understand it (@alexsa and others jump in when I get it wrong) if one were to take two different vessels, of the exact same dimensions and displacement, but one of them had a goodly portion of their displacement located a significantly greater distance above the waterline than the other, then that vessel would have a much higher centre of gravity and would be more inclined to have the hull roll. It could also be more prone to capsizing under the right (or wrong) conditionsThe South African version of the Meko 200 is 3 meters longer and has a couple of hundred tons heavier than the ANZACs so maybe there is still some wiggle room in the design.
However I would think that further upgrading the Hobarts might be a bit easier.
All good points and I don't disagree.IIRC the issue with the RAN's ANZAC-class FFH displacement is not 'just' what the total displacement is, but also where some of that displacement is, namely topweight. As I understand it (@alexsa and others jump in when I get it wrong) if one were to take two different vessels, of the exact same dimensions and displacement, but one of them had a goodly portion of their displacement located a significantly greater distance above the waterline than the other, then that vessel would have a much higher centre of gravity and would be more inclined to have the hull roll. It could also be more prone to capsizing under the right (or wrong) conditions
Also, I looked at some of the images of the Valour-class (MEKO A200) frigates in S. African service and I noticed that elements of the layout were quite different between the RAN and SAN. For example, while both designs have a main gun in the 'A' position, the SAN frigates have their SAM VLS cells on the same level as the main gun, immediately aft of the gun. The RAN's ANZAC-class frigates appear to have their Mk 41 VLS located immediately aft of the funnels, two decks higher their where the SAN has their VLS located.
Indeed. As I understand it, some of the RAN ANZAC displacement increase is ballast to balance added topweight. Perhaps some additional equipment could be added low down without increasing displacement, by removing an equivalent weight of ballast. I'd not dare venture an opinion on how much or where, though, or even if it's possible, rather than just 'perhaps'. Way outside my competence.IIRC the issue with the RAN's ANZAC-class FFH displacement is not 'just' what the total displacement is, but also where some of that displacement is, namely topweight. As I understand it (@alexsa and others jump in when I get it wrong) if one were to take two different vessels, of the exact same dimensions and displacement, but one of them had a goodly portion of their displacement located a significantly greater distance above the waterline than the other, then that vessel would have a much higher centre of gravity and would be more inclined to have the hull roll. It could also be more prone to capsizing under the right (or wrong) conditions
Also, I looked at some of the images of the Valour-class (MEKO A200) frigates in S. African service and I noticed that elements of the layout were quite different between the RAN and SAN. For example, while both designs have a main gun in the 'A' position, the SAN frigates have their SAM VLS cells on the same level as the main gun, immediately aft of the gun. The RAN's ANZAC-class frigates appear to have their Mk 41 VLS located immediately aft of the funnels, two decks higher their where the SAN has their VLS located.
These additions for the Hobarts are what really make me wonder about the magazine size, as well as the commentary about strike from RAN. I have no knowledge on what will be the mix the RAN choose, but let’s guess with a hypothetical load of about 16 TLAM, 10 SM-6, 14 SM-2 and 8 Quad packed ESSM cells. That’s decent, but IMO a little short for high intensity war fighting on the TLAM and long range SAM side, particularly given the inability to reload at sea. The problem is magnified for the Hunters with only 32 cells.They certainly are for the Hobarts, with the planned upgrade to AEGIS Baseline 9.0 and addition of ESSM Block II, SM-2 Block IIIC and SM-6 Block 1A already in the planning stages. With us having joined the development program for Mk.54 Mod 2 torpedo and approved acquisitions for future ASM and “strategic strike“ weapons I’d suggest the upgrade program will be a lengthy, on-going process with significant new capabilities intended over the next decade to make these truly formidable vessels.
But there is and only ever will be 3 of them and the ANZAC Class for better or worse due to current Government choices, will comprise the bulk of our surface combatant force for potentially up to the next 20 years… Given improvements such as towed sonar arrays and (apparently) ESSM Block II are already approved, I and I guess others wonder what else might be able to be done to them, to ensure they remain a viable combat capability during those years?
I think it's a real dilemma, because if your Hobart is in range to shoot a Tomahawk salvo at a given target, it is also in range of any number of hostile anti-ship weapons lurking in the neighbourhood of said target (DF21/26, H6 + YJ100, DF100... etc.). Obviously you are going to deploy your Hobarts in a task force (ideally under cover of the USN, its airpower and that of the USAF/RAAF) using defence in depth to deny the bad guys their targeting data, but I still think there's likely to be a premium on those AAW weapons in a peer conflict.These additions for the Hobarts are what really make me wonder about the magazine size, as well as the commentary about strike from RAN. I have no knowledge on what will be the mix the RAN choose, but let’s guess with a hypothetical load of about 16 TLAM, 10 SM-6, 14 SM-2 and 8 Quad packed ESSM cells. That’s decent, but IMO a little short for high intensity war fighting on the TLAM and long range SAM side, particularly given the inability to reload at sea. The problem is magnified for the Hunters with only 32 cells.
Comment on general shipbuilding concepts: Ref for stability physics found here.IIRC the issue with the RAN's ANZAC-class FFH displacement is not 'just' what the total displacement is, but also where some of that displacement is, namely topweight. As I understand it (@alexsa and others jump in when I get it wrong) if one were to take two different vessels, of the exact same dimensions and displacement, but one of them had a goodly portion of their displacement located a significantly greater distance above the waterline than the other, then that vessel would have a much higher centre of gravity and would be more inclined to have the hull roll. It could also be more prone to capsizing under the right (or wrong) conditions
Yep, sad that RAN didn’t get it’s way reportedly, when it wanted the 64x cell equipped ‘Baby Burke’ but it’s what they have to live with, given they have little other option. ANZAC‘s have the current pathetic 8x cell VLS launcher and Hunter will be an upgrade on that, but will still have among the smallest VLS cell number of any modern fighting ship, weighing 10,000t or more in the world…These additions for the Hobarts are what really make me wonder about the magazine size, as well as the commentary about strike from RAN. I have no knowledge on what will be the mix the RAN choose, but let’s guess with a hypothetical load of about 16 TLAM, 10 SM-6, 14 SM-2 and 8 Quad packed ESSM cells. That’s decent, but IMO a little short for high intensity war fighting on the TLAM and long range SAM side, particularly given the inability to reload at sea. The problem is magnified for the Hunters with only 32 cells.