Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Redlands18]

My understanding is that Oto Melara/ Leonardo has focused on the 76mm gun for anti air, with land attack as a secondary function, not the 40mm. I've googled a while and can't find any reference to the Strales system being used for anything other than the 76mm gun.

The 40mm is much more generic, even though their site says missiles

"the high operative flexibility covers most typical modern naval scenarios including generic surface threats, fast crafts, antiship helicopters and fast attacking aircraft as well as various missiles. "

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

Can the 40mm gun be in its current guise be linked with any AA system?

On a seperate issue, The Australian has their own article on the PM getting into the sub issue

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Thats behind a Paywall which the Australian normally is.

 

[Stampede]

Thats behind a Paywall which the Australian normally is.

What was the gist of The Australian article?

 

[76mmGuns]

The Australian article:

"Australia’s $220 billion submarine disaster surfaces as PM’s nightmare sinks in

Prime Minister Scott Morrison and his Assistant Defence Minister Andrew Hastie have finally taken advice — and now they must act. Picture: Gary Ramage
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By ROBERT GOTTLIEBSEN
8:14AM JANUARY 21, 2021
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Prime Minister Scott Morrison and recently appointed Assistant Defence Minister Andrew Hastie appear to have discovered why the French submarine project went so horribly wrong.

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That's all I could copy and paste.

It's an article by Robert Gottliebsen. Partially on how Robert had been alone in writing about this problem, and also complimenting the PM on not denying the issue and getting into it. It also talks about how the problem is so large that it can actually affect Australia for a generation, since it's a $220bn issue.

If there's anything else, I don't recall,since I only skimmed it once.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Yes, well that's all very fine, but like a farmer buying a Toyota SUV to replace his failng tractor because it can do some of the same work, will be cheaper and his friend, the local car dealer will also be pleased by the sale. The old tractor will last a bit longer. Then all the tractor only stuff can be handled by contracting the large farm enterprise across the river because they have lots of tractors.

Except that when the good season comes and he can't get help from the farming superpower who is busy elsewhere, he'll end up buying his retired neighbour's 80 year old hand cranked Lanz Bulldog (that he had since it was a pup) to make do - but not make money. ( Canadian Option)

The Soryus are fine boats. But ours need much longer legs. They are not what we want.

oldsig

With so much on the line with this project, Australia should buy/lease a Taigei Class, from Japan, operate it in the RAN and make a full assessment.
When $80 Billion plus is on the line, spending the $2 Billion or so required might be money well spent.
If nothing else it would put pressure on the French.

 

[ngatimozart]

Jeez I am not paying AU$40.00 every four weeks to read the digital version of the Australian. My Washington Post, NZ Herald, Foreign Policy etc., subs are far less than that.

Anyway from what I have read in the Australian, when I have read it, it's not very well informed on defence issues. In fact the term I would use is uninformed. So on the face of it I would treat it with a grain of salt.

 

[John Fedup]

I think as a general observation media likes to dump on major defence projects as it draws in readers/viewers. As for media pricing, absolutely agree. We pay for connection fees for the internet and then have to pay for site access while at the same time we are buried in BS pop up advertising. Oh ya, the government adds in the HST(a VAT tax). Anyone remember free TV (antenna) along with 25 cent newspapers?

WRT Australia’s submarine project, given my Québécois bias, France just might be like Greece offering wooden horses. In principle the French solution offers the capabilities the RAN needs...are they team players, time will tell.

 

[Antipode]

Part of France's strong stance regarding defence technology development and procurement, is not to easily share much when they "hold the keys" of a joint development. The way they promoted the Sorpene design as full French is part of the reason Spain went on with developing its own national design.

If the project goes good, Australia would end with extraordinary boats, extraordinarily paid as well. It's capabilities would improve greatly.
France will get a fair reputation boost, and probably many more export or joint contracts.

If things go south France could blame Australia's part of the works. In this case Australia would still have a problem to solve, lacking the money (or the popular will to expend it) to do so.

The first scenario really seems the most probable one. France indeed knows how to make subs, and Australia is up to the task.


Salud

PD In regard to the Tomahawk desirability, I can't recall where I read this but: "keep making them for one million, and the navy will keep wanting them".

 

[John Fedup]

@Antipode ...I agree, France has great incentive to do this project right. Certainly the RAN requirement fits the RCN future requirement as well and is probably the only realistic non-nuclear option on the horizon. Some of the unsubstantiated cost numbers being thrown around are very concerning of course but surely must be incorrect as they seem to exceed pricing for Astute and early version Virginia SSNs.

 

[ASSAIL]

@oldsig127 One superior feature of the Soryu is that there are fully functional vessels currently in operation albeit lacking important features the Attack class hopefully will have.

My understanding is that Oto Melara/ Leonardo has focused on the 76mm gun for anti air, with land attack as a secondary function, not the 40mm. I've googled a while and can't find any reference to the Strales system being used for anything other than the 76mm gun.

The 40mm is much more generic, even though their site says missiles

"the high operative flexibility covers most typical modern naval scenarios including generic surface threats, fast crafts, antiship helicopters and fast attacking aircraft as well as various missiles. "

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

Can the 40mm gun be in its current guise be linked with any AA system?

On a seperate issue, The Australian has their own article on the PM getting into the sub issue

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Gottliebsen on submarines is the same as Goon on F35’s. Both have an agenda, both are defence Neanderthals.

 

[oldsig127]

Gottliebsen on submarines is the same as Goon on F35’s. Both have an agenda, both are defence Neanderthals.

Succinct and accurate. I can only add that Gottliebsen is a finance journalist whose emphasis will always be on cost and rarely on utility.

oldsig

 

[spoz]

My understanding is that Oto Melara/ Leonardo has focused on the 76mm gun for anti air, with land attack as a secondary function, not the 40mm. I've googled a while and can't find any reference to the Strales system being used for anything other than the 76mm gun.

The 40mm is much more generic, even though their site says missiles

"the high operative flexibility covers most typical modern naval scenarios including generic surface threats, fast crafts, antiship helicopters and fast attacking aircraft as well as various missiles. "

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

Can the 40mm gun be in its current guise be linked with any AA system?

On a seperate issue, The Australian has their own article on the PM getting into the sub issue

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Given that the type A gun is controlled by the CMS, that it elevates to 85 degrees, its RoF, its training speed and acceleration, and that it uses programmable rounds, it will certainly have a degree of AA competence. How good will probably depend largely on the sensors and the capability of the CMS.

 

[John Newman]

Oh dear, the annual give the French boat a kicking by the usual suspects, one minute it’s the Fin Review, now The Oz, gets a bit boring.

This is always worth a re-read:

Japan's Government and Industry Held an Industry Briefing on Soryu Sub

Japan's Government and Industry Held an Industry Briefing on Soryu Submarine at PACIFIC 2015

www.navyrecognition.com

And specifically this paragraph:

According to Izumi Ishii, the submarine offered for the Australian SEA1000 program will be "a quite different submarine compared to the Japanese Soryu because of its American combat system, larger size and increase range but it will have some commonality with the Soryu".


Even the Japanese made it clear that the boat they were offering was NOT an off the shelf copy of Soryu.

Put simply there is NO out of the box solution for our requirement, both the German and Japanese boats had to be stretched and enlarged, and that’s just for starters.

The French boat on the other hand will share the approx same overall dimensions as Attack, a bit longer, but reported to be same diameter.

Anyway, I await next January for the annual instalment of ‘give the French boat a kicking’!

Cheers,

 

[StingrayOZ]

The French boat on the other hand will share the approx same overall dimensions as Attack, a bit longer, but reported to be same diameter.

I would not be surprised if Attack ends up being exactly the same size or larger. As the sub is still in the design phase, I don't think any comments are authoritative. Changing diameters would require very extensive engineering as you are basically re-engineering every aspect.

The Japanese sub marine is designed around Japanese needs. It is not designed for long transits, it is not designed around littorals, it is not designed for hot tropical waters, it is not designed around Australian navy habitability. It uses very traditional methods for construction and its design. While very advanced in some areas, in others it is hugely underdeveloped. It is designed to dive deep and stay there.

Japan operates her subs very differently to Australia.

In this case Australia would still have a problem to solve, lacking the money (or the popular will to expend it) to do so.

It would never get to that point. We aren't going to end up at 2030, and just drop in on the project and realize no work has been done.
Subs are always hard to develop and build. Its moon rocket stuff. This should highlight why its so devastating to loose production capability, and how the political mess from both sides has been very destructive to capability and industry.

 

[John Newman]

I would not be surprised if Attack ends up being exactly the same size or larger. As the sub is still in the design phase, I don't think any comments are authoritative. Changing diameters would require very extensive engineering as you are basically re-engineering every aspect.

As I said above, it would appear the Attack boats will be approx the same dimensions as the parent French boat.

What I’ve seen reported is that diameter will be the same, but length might be a few metres shorter, of course this isn’t guaranteed either way.

This ASPI article from early 2016 is a good read:

Designing the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A | The Strategist

Editor’s note: The Strategist has invited all three SEA 1000 contenders to explain their approach to meeting Australia’s future submarine requirement. A common misunderstanding about the conventionally powered Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A is that is ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

Cheers,

 

[Bob53]

Instead of adding an additional Phalanx on the AOR, why not give it a Leonardo Marlin 40 main gun (the same one on the OPV), The Marlin 40 has an anti-air and anti-surface capability.

I would also think that it is reasonable to provide the LHD with the same Marlin 40, to replace each of the Typhoons and a single Mk15 Phalanx mounted at the end of the island or a new structure at front of the deck on starboard side akin to the Turkish Navy's LHD.

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

76 ready rounds. Does anyone know how long the reloading process is? I’ve always thought ship mounted gun auto fed from a magazine and the ready rounds are the magazine depth.

 

[Todjaeger]

76 ready rounds. Does anyone know how long the reloading process is? I’ve always thought ship mounted gun auto fed from a magazine and the ready rounds are the magazine depth.

It depends a bit on the gun configuration. If the gun is on a non-deck penetrating mounting, then there would not be a magazine available to reload the ready rounds and unless there was another magazine elsewhere, the munitions available would consist of whatever was contained in the mounting.

 

[DDG38]

It depends a bit on the gun configuration. If the gun is on a non-deck penetrating mounting, then there would not be a magazine available to reload the ready rounds and unless there was another magazine elsewhere, the munitions available would consist of whatever was contained in the mounting.

As per their website, easy installation with no deck penetration required, so I'm assuming the ready rounds are stored within the turret. At a firing rate of 300 rounds a minute, that 72 round clip won't last long.

 

[Todjaeger]

Gottliebsen on submarines is the same as Goon on F35’s. Both have an agenda, both are defence Neanderthals.

I just wanted to point out that this is actually an unfair and IMO rather inaccurate or ignorant comparison. Neanderthal remains which have been discovered and examined have generally been found to have space for a larger brain than modern humans. While it has been quite common to depict Neanderthals as being primitive and/or stupid brutes, it has since been discovered that they were tool and clothing makers, and other activities consistent with higher thought. In short, Neanderthals have been slighted by the comparison to those two...

 

[Todjaeger]

As per their website, easy installation with no deck penetration required, so I'm assuming the ready rounds are stored within the turret. At a firing rate of 300 rounds a minute, that 72 round clip won't last long.

Yeah, that #RPM that manufacturers tend to throw around always irritates me. After all, how can a gun fire 300 rounds per minute, when the gun would exhaust the available/ready ammunition in just over 14 seconds...

 

[DDG38]

Yeah, that #RPM that manufacturers tend to throw around always irritates me. After all, how can a gun fire 300 rounds per minute, when the gun would exhaust the available/ready ammunition in just over 14 seconds...

I hear you. Seems almost like a disposable "hail mary" gun mount you can bolt onto anything with some deck space. Maybe James Packer needs one for his newest yacht.