Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[John Fedup]

One issue that has been mentioned about many Toronto markets is there limited ability to have extra stock at store locations because stores are often smaller due to minimizing property cost, hence no at site warehouse because they employ JIT inventory management. Great for normal times, not so much for heavy and and panic buying. The trucks supplying these stores can’t seem to keep up even though the big distribution centres claim to have ample supplies. I guess we have a “truck gap”.

 

[hauritz]

It is hard to see how Australia's various defence programs aren't going to be adversely affected by the economic fallout from this virus. There might be cutbacks or at least delays in some of these programs.

The only real good news I can take from this is that in China the virus seems to have run its course in about 3 months ... assuming they aren't lying. Also, Island nations seem to fare better. Singapore, Taiwan and even Japan seemed to have been pretty effective at holding this virus at bay. I guess that is because we are in a better position to shut down our borders and track the movements of new arrivals.

 

[Volkodav]

It is hard to see how Australia's various defence programs aren't going to be adversely affected by the economic fallout from this virus. There might be cutbacks or at least delays in some of these programs.

The only real good news I can take from this is that in China the virus seems to have run its course in about 3 months ... assuming they aren't lying. Also, Island nations seem to fare better. Singapore, Taiwan and even Japan seemed to have been pretty effective at holding this virus at bay. I guess that is because we are in a better position to shut down our borders and track the movements of new arrivals.

An evil off topic thought.

Mexico appears to be doing much better in the current crisis than the US as well as being in a prime position as the global supply chain diversifies away from an increasingly expensive and unreliable China. Maybe Mexico will end up paying for Trump's wall, to keep all the diseased, unemployed Americans, looking for a better life, out.

 

[Redlands18]

It is hard to see how Australia's various defence programs aren't going to be adversely affected by the economic fallout from this virus. There might be cutbacks or at least delays in some of these programs.

The only real good news I can take from this is that in China the virus seems to have run its course in about 3 months ... assuming they aren't lying. Also, Island nations seem to fare better. Singapore, Taiwan and even Japan seemed to have been pretty effective at holding this virus at bay. I guess that is because we are in a better position to shut down our borders and track the movements of new arrivals.

I think we are bound to see a slow down in procurement programs and Trg this year as extra money is going to have to funneled into Health and Welfare and Defence is going to have to wear some of it.

 

[76mmGuns]

Maybe the Govt will increase spending to stimulate the economy, and not only keep building the OPV's/Hunter's, but increase their numbers?

(I know this forum hates speculation, but the govt is already injecting cash. Why not bump up current projects?)

 

[Todjaeger]

Maybe the Govt will increase spending to stimulate the economy, and not only keep building the OPV's/Hunter's, but increase their numbers?

(I know this forum hates speculation, but the govt is already injecting cash. Why not bump up current projects?)

Another potential area (and I am not posting this to try and stir up wishlisting) would be to speed up/expand the Pacific support ship purchase. I could see something like that being something which could be 'sold' to the public for HADR. Given the ongoing pandemic, a floating hospital capability which could be dispatched to coastal areas around Australia to augment the capacities of local hospitals would work. Similarly, being able to deploy such a vessel if an outbreak strikes PNG and/or one of the S. Pacific island nations, being able to deploy a vessel which can serve as a hospital without also removing the RAN and ADF's amphibious capability could be helpful.

Incidentally, I believe that the USN has deployed the two Mercy-class hospital ships to augment urban hospitals with the SARS-CoV-2 virus outbreak. IIRC one of them was deployed to New York Harbour.

 

[Volkodav]

An interesting strategic development. Apparently Chinas man made island bases are breaking up and sinking. It seems raising ocean levels and more severe weather conditions are undermining the the new structures.

 

[Redlands18]

Another potential area (and I am not posting this to try and stir up wishlisting) would be to speed up/expand the Pacific support ship purchase. I could see something like that being something which could be 'sold' to the public for HADR. Given the ongoing pandemic, a floating hospital capability which could be dispatched to coastal areas around Australia to augment the capacities of local hospitals would work. Similarly, being able to deploy such a vessel if an outbreak strikes PNG and/or one of the S. Pacific island nations, being able to deploy a vessel which can serve as a hospital without also removing the RAN and ADF's amphibious capability could be helpful.

Incidentally, I believe that the USN has deployed the two Mercy-class hospital ships to augment urban hospitals with the SARS-CoV-2 virus outbreak. IIRC one of them was deployed to New York Harbour.

You could actually use the LHDs for that as well as they carry an extensive Hospital facility, about 60 beds and operating rooms, if i remember correctly

 

[Todjaeger]

You could actually use the LHDs for that as well as they carry an extensive Hospital facility, about 60 beds and operating rooms, if i remember correctly

True, but such usage would also leave them unavailable should they be needed elsewhere for another task. If AusGov is committed to purchasing and bring into service some sort of Pacific Support ship, then accelerating the purchase and kitting the vessel out with both a regularly sized sickbay and including features which would permit hospital facilities to be significantly expanded by re-purposing ship facilities as needed.

 

[Redlands18]

True, but such usage would also leave them unavailable should they be needed elsewhere for another task. If AusGov is committed to purchasing and bring into service some sort of Pacific Support ship, then accelerating the purchase and kitting the vessel out with both a regularly sized sickbay and including features which would permit hospital facilities to be significantly expanded by re-purposing ship facilities as needed.

Yes I’m definitely with you on the Pacific Ship idea and there is no reason it can’t be used for Australian emergencies as well.

 

[vonnoobie]

Just a question not advocating but what would be a ball park price to buy a civilian tanker ship of some sort and convert it to a dedicated hospital ship? Not so much for the ADF so may not even require naval personnel aboard but rather we seem to be getting one virus or another every couple of years now and with global warming making disasters that much worse is it a conceivable investment? Im sure a case could be made for its need with how events have played out over the last two decades locally and globally and at a time when we need to create work and ship prices are likely to once again crash with a reduction in trade might not be too costly to buy a newish ship on the cheap and outfit it. Likely work on such could happen sooner then the Pacific Support ship. That being said which ever command it falls under would affect its operational useif I understand it correctly. Still an interesting thought. Jobs and future national and regional security with all the browny points that come with having a full fledged hospital ship parked off of another nations coast aiding their citizens.

 

[John Fedup]

Maybe a cruise ship might be a better starting point rather than a tanker for a hospital ship. I suspect when all is said and done there will be many available. The airline industry will recover eventually but I don’t think the cruise industry will ever get back to where it was. The horror stories from trapped and stranded passengers will resonate big time.

 

[ngatimozart]

An interesting strategic development. Apparently Chinas man made island bases are breaking up and sinking. It seems raising ocean levels and more severe weather conditions are undermining the the new structures.

Tangaroa (Neptune) giveth; Tangaroa taketh away.

Depends upon how they have engineered the coasts and beaches, not just at the waterline, but where the depth equals half the wavelength of the mean waves during normal seasons, and for typhoons. Then theoretically they should place rocks in the water at those depths and that will reduce the wave energy which then drastically reduces the erosion at the beach. Most engineers don't understand that unless they have a a background in coastal geomorphology or similar. So you can drop rocks into the water by the breakers or on the beach, but the beach will still erode because you are not reducing the wave energy where it needs to be reduced. That's where it first touch's the bottom and rocks or other obstructions placed there, trip the wave up, hence it loses most of its energy before it reaches the shore.

So if the PLA engineers didn't do that, then their artificial islands will kind of self destruct. That's just one reason, and there will be many more technical ones as well contributing to it.

 

[SouthernSky]

Maybe a cruise ship might be a better starting point rather than a tanker for a hospital ship. I suspect when all is said and done there will be many available. The airline industry will recover eventually but I don’t think the cruise industry will ever get back to where it was. The horror stories from trapped and stranded passengers will resonate big time.

Up until two weeks ago my brother in law who is a travel agent in Australia was still rearranging travel details for customers so that they could make existing bookings on cruise ships. This involved these customers forfeiting $12,000 first class airfares already paid for to re book new air fares through 3rd countries to enable them to embark on said cruise lines.

The cruise lines will recover because some with significant amounts of cash are morons.

 

[John Fedup]

Up until two weeks ago my brother in law who is a travel agent in Australia was still rearranging travel details for customers so that they could make existing bookings on cruise ships. This involved these customers forfeiting $12,000 first class airfares already paid for to re book new air fares through 3rd countries to enable them to embark on said cruise lines.

The cruise lines will recover because some with significant amounts of cash are morons.

With so many people employed building these ships, the actual crews, and all the marine industries that support these fleets plus the people working in the travel agencies, it would be very beneficial to see a comeback but I don’t think it will, even with moron cash.

 

[alexsa]

Just a question not advocating but what would be a ball park price to buy a civilian tanker ship of some sort and convert it to a dedicated hospital ship? Not so much for the ADF so may not even require naval personnel aboard but rather we seem to be getting one virus or another every couple of years now and with global warming making disasters that much worse is it a conceivable investment? Im sure a case could be made for its need with how events have played out over the last two decades locally and globally and at a time when we need to create work and ship prices are likely to once again crash with a reduction in trade might not be too costly to buy a newish ship on the cheap and outfit it. Likely work on such could happen sooner then the Pacific Support ship. That being said which ever command it falls under would affect its operational useif I understand it correctly. Still an interesting thought. Jobs and future national and regional security with all the browny points that come with having a full fledged hospital ship parked off of another nations coast aiding their citizens.

Conversions are fraught projects ... especially significant changes in character such as tanker to hosiptial ship (noting Mercy is such a converion). Such conversions are

• Often almost as long as a new build in design and preparation:
• Often a compromise (look at HMAS Sirius as an example) leading to long term losses in efficiency as ther are limits to changes in arrangement (unless you wnat to spend more than a new build):
• Have less life than new build (a 10 year old tanker is still a 10 year old tanker with all the wear and tear and aging that goes with it): and
• Unlikely to deliver the same economic and technical growth benefit of a new build.

 

[seaspear]

In comparison of hospital and mobile field hospitals wouldnt there be a number of pros and cons in making a choice ,certainly having the mobile ones set up outside regional centres to scale of demand would have advantage considering moving patients to the ship

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[Takao]

In comparison of hospital and mobile field hospitals wouldnt there be a number of pros and cons in making a choice ,certainly having the mobile ones set up outside regional centres to scale of demand would have advantage considering moving patients to the ship

Mobile and Field Hospital Systems - OPEC Systems

OPEC provides mobile and field hospital systems - from mobile clinics and small hospitals, to large field hospitals for full scale disaster relief

www.opecsystems.com

BLU-MED | World's Leader in Deployable Medical Facilities™

BLU-MED's mobile field hospitals and treatment facilities are high-quality, portable, medical shelters, available when and where needed.

blu-med.com

One thing I would caution is the majority of our medical staff are Reservists, who do their day-to-day work in hospitals. Unlike, say, our American brethren, we don't have many full time medical personnel. To activate our hospitals would involve taking medical staff out of the civilian system. While there may be options (ie, perhaps some RAN personnel taking conventional patients onto an LHD or similar), there will be a very fine balance to make between activating medical people in uniform and stripping civilian support.

 

[ngatimozart]

In comparison of hospital and mobile field hospitals wouldnt there be a number of pros and cons in making a choice ,certainly having the mobile ones set up outside regional centres to scale of demand would have advantage considering moving patients to the ship

Mobile and Field Hospital Systems - OPEC Systems

OPEC provides mobile and field hospital systems - from mobile clinics and small hospitals, to large field hospitals for full scale disaster relief

www.opecsystems.com

BLU-MED | World's Leader in Deployable Medical Facilities™

BLU-MED's mobile field hospitals and treatment facilities are high-quality, portable, medical shelters, available when and where needed.

blu-med.com

This isn't really the thread for it, but why should it be an ADF acquisition? If the CoA decide that they want to invest in mobile hospitals, hospital ships, etc., for HADR then they surely can lumber it on some other department.

 

[aussienscale]

One thing I would caution is the majority of our medical staff are Reservists, who do their day-to-day work in hospitals. Unlike, say, our American brethren, we don't have many full time medical personnel. To activate our hospitals would involve taking medical staff out of the civilian system. While there may be options (ie, perhaps some RAN personnel taking conventional patients onto an LHD or similar), there will be a very fine balance to make between activating medical people in uniform and stripping civilian support.

Yes Takao agree, the pie within the country is only so big, it does not magically grow any bigger, all we are talking about is cutting the pie in different ways and potentially stretching the resources in the wrong direction and actually reducing our capability as a nation to tackle this issue.

Challenging times ahead