Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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alexsa

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The German Braunschweig class are rated at about 26 knots on significantly less power though obviously Hull form would also have an impact.

I’m hoping that the RAN are not really replacing 25 Hulls with 12 as the class page on the RAN site suggests.
The Lurssen spec sheet has them at 22 knots on the same machinery (I think). I don’t think these will be greyhounds but 22 knots is better that the LHD or other support craft. If they are designed for a sustained speed can sustain 20knots (as opposed to sprinting above 18 knots) this is a pretty handy speed for what they are designed for.

The Fremantles spent a lot fo time stooging about at 11 knots on one engine for endurance purposes.
 

StingrayOZ

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There is a nice clear model of the Afura class here ...

Luerssen Australia and ASC Started Construction of Future RAN OPVs

The model also seems to feature a Double Eagle ROV.
And a blue flag.. I wouldn't read too much into it.

I think Damen had the fastest OPV of the contenders. Which maxed out at 26kt. Did they end up fitting high speed or low speed engines to the lurrsen OPV. I assume if they can do 22kt that is the high speed version, what powerplant will they be fitted with?

With a 10.5 RHIB, Camcopter and a 40mm they are going to be a hell of a lot more effective at longer range patrols and chasing anything down. I would imagine they would be able to maintain a much faster speed in bigger seas than the outgoing Fremantles and will probably have an efficient cruising speed more like 16 kts.

While it is easy to focus on any apparent lack of dream capability, I gotta say these OPV's will be a very valuable addition to the RAN and are the ships we sorely need.

Also as it is a continuous ship building plant they won't be replacing every ship with just 12, 12 is just the first batch. Honestly I think we will end up with 24 ships. 12 of this, and maybe 8-12 of a different class. Then repeat. After establishing a baseline capability of the Arafura's, I could imagine maybe something a bit bigger say 90m, being acquired for the follow on batch. That is if the RAN, AusGov, and the builders can keep a lid on costs (build and operating) and get the kind of capability they want out of it.

Plus we are all missing the bigger question, are we ready for a new generation of Sea Patrol TV series?
 

Joe Black

Active Member
Plus we are all missing the bigger question, are we ready for a new generation of Sea Patrol TV series?
Only if Lisa Mccune is in it.

I could imagine maybe something a bit bigger say 90m, being acquired for the follow on batch. That is if the RAN, AusGov, and the builders can keep a lid on costs (build and operating) and get the kind of capability they want out of it. ?
Will be interesting to see if a 90m or slightly bigger boat were to ever be acquired, would it be more like an OCV or LCS like ships rather than just another batch of OPVs.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It’s not worth dwelling on the OPV speed, 20kts is more than adequate if the carry a 10mtr RHIB which is quite capable of armed pursuit if that ever happens.
If the patrols are anything like patrols of the past they will be conducted on one shaft at between 10-13 kts in fact the only time I ever ran at full speed was on the quarterly full power trial. Those with more recent PB experience may care to comment.
They are a much larger and more sea kindly hull so higher speeds can be maintained in rough weather than the previous classes which were very speed constrained.
As a general pattern the worst weather for small ships off the Arnhem Land coast or crossing the Bonaparte/Carpentaria Gulfs is during the dry season when strong South Easterly Tradewinds cause a short and vicious sea quite lethal especially offshore some distance. Those who have flogged their way back to Darwin from Ashmore Reef will understand. The wet season is benign until the tropical lows kick in when the westerly swells become quite large.
These 80mtr ships will be able to handle these condition and could maintain their speed far greater than all the previous classes and their speed is perfectly adequate.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
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Only if Lisa Mccune is in it.
Well that goes without saying, I am pessimistic about that new show she is on sticking around for long. Its still years before these are FOC and any would be available for filming duties.

Will be interesting to see if a 90m or slightly bigger boat were to ever be acquired, would it be more like an OCV or LCS like ships rather than just another batch of OPVs.
There is a lot of space between now and then. I don't see the LCS core concept being terribly attractive for Australia (particularly the high speed component). If we need a high speed ship, then something more like the HSV is probably more doable, and we could probably get away with just leasing that capability if we need it.

As mentioned something that would be capable of operating off the coast of Africa or Persian gulf, embark helo, maybe 76mm and maybe ESSM, bit more endurance would be highly valuable. Because that would directly free up a major (AWD/Frigate) for use elsewhere, and deployments with a crew of 60-80 could be more easily managed and cheaper to operate. I guess the question then becomes do you get 6-8 of something like that or another 12 batch of something at 80m.

With the new OPV's I imagine we will quickly wonder how we ever got by without them. I can see them getting use around the top end, Indian ocean and the South Pacific. They are highly likely to become our key asset we operate with Indonesia and be a key point for joint operations and training. And other nations (Timor, PNG, Malaysia, Phillipines).
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I’m hoping that the RAN are not really replacing 25 Hulls with 12 as the class page on the RAN site suggests.
Time has moved on since the 2009 DWP, we aren't going to see 20 OPV's replace 26 ships of four classes, but all is not lost....

As it stands at the moment, we have 12 OPVs replacing the remaining 13 (out of 14) ACPBs.

We also have four of the six MHC having their life extended until around 2030 (two of the six have been laid up since 2001).

The 2 Leeuwin class AGS will be replaced with a new ship, project SEA 2400 Phase 1, with a single larger ship, for example something along the lines of this:

https://www.fincantieri.com/globala...vi-militari/m-18-16_hydrographic-vessel_f.pdf

It appears this will be built in WA and be in service around 2025:

AusTender: Closed ATM View - CASG/SHIP/EOI0071/17

Then sometime around 2030 there is a project to replace the remaining MHC (according to the 2017 Naval Shipbuilding plan).

Will we see another eight OPVs to make 20? Don't think so, but I still think the door is open for another 4-6 to replace the MHC and Paluma class too.

Cheers,
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Plus we are all missing the bigger question, are we ready for a new generation of Sea Patrol TV series?
Yes please, a new generation of Sea Patrol!

But I think there is one person not looking forward to that, Sarah Hanson-Young, it's hard not to forget when a few years ago she thought that Sea Patrol was REAL:


You got to love the way she flutters her eyes when she realises she has screwed up!

Anyway, it rates up there with the other 'Hanson', Pauline, when she said 'please explain??'
 

AndyinOz

Member
Yes please, a new generation of Sea Patrol!

But I think there is one person not looking forward to that, Sarah Hanson-Young, it's hard not to forget when a few years ago she thought that Sea Patrol was REAL:


You got to love the way she flutters her eyes when she realises she has screwed up!

Anyway, it rates up there with the other 'Hanson', Pauline, when she said 'please explain??'
I am no expert myself by any means at all, but as someone with at least an interest in the area, it makes you feel a little dismayed that the level of idiocy displayed by if not the decision-makers in government or parliament those that are meant to have oversight of programs and what have you. I would have thought as we all had to at school do your homework and don't try to be a smarty pants. It would appear from an outsiders point of view these will be capable platforms able to perform tasks just as if not even better than previous vessels, their use does not need to be trivialised by politicians, nor does the role played (excuse the pun) by those that crew them. I suspect though that by the time they hit the water the producers would want to be landing a DJI Phantom 9 drone on the deck to get those epic aerial shots ...... leave my Phantom 4 in its wake.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Here's something that caught my attention this morning:

Construction begins on Arafura Class patrol vessels

Specifically the last paragraph:

"Six of the vessels will be based at HMAS Coonawarra in Darwin, four at HMAS Cairns in north Queensland and two at HMAS Stirling in Western Australia."


I wonder if the basing of two of the OPVs in WA will mean more patrols into the Indian and Southern Oceans?

Interesting!
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
I agree with you. If there is a need for a soft power enabler then it should come from the DFAT budget, it should be something similar to ADV Ocean Shield and manned by contractors.
It may have the same utility as the ADVs if conflict occurs but aside from that the tasking should be entirely under DFAT (Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade - similar to State Dept.) control.
If the new Pacific Ship is to be fast tracked you would be hard pressed to beat the HMAS Choules.
If this is so then a new LHD should be ordered to replace it asap.
To help fill the shortfall in amphibious lift until the arrival of the new LHD 3 or 4 LST120s could be purchased.
The crew and sustainment costs already budgeted for HMAS Choules would go a long way to cover the costs of operating them.
In the long term the combination of a new LHD and several LSTs would greatly increase the RANs capabilites.
 

ngatimozart

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If the new Pacific Ship is to be fast tracked you would be hard pressed to beat the HMAS Choules.
If this is so then a new LHD should be ordered to replace it asap.
To help fill the shortfall in amphibious lift until the arrival of the new LHD 3 or 4 LST120s could be purchased.
The crew and sustainment costs already budgeted for HMAS Choules would go a long way to cover the costs of operating them.
In the long term the combination of a new LHD and several LSTs would greatly increase the RANs capabilites.
All this is very well, but where are you going to get the money from?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
All this is very well, but where are you going to get the money from?
For the LHD the original JP 2048 Phase 4C that was originally funded for ~$1 billion. Now with JP3030, and where that money went I have no idea. But if Ausgov want an immediate ship for this kind of role then some additional funds would need to be made available, given the current expanding Australian economy that isn't an impossibility. However, Choules isn't going to live forever, it will be replaced, so if you think about moving that replacement forward, there would be some additional funds would be need to be made available. Savings in training and operations and operating costs would be further enhanced with 3 of a class instead of 2 + 1. Additional crew from the not replaced Balkipapan LCH x6 would be ideal for a new Amphib.

DFAT picks up the operating costs of Choules as a humanitarian ship. Doable, DFAT has had its own disasters regarding big projects. Many are in limbo. Choules can help fill the gap until they are complete. You also need a non-military presence. Choules can be DFAT's floating roadshow, focusing on civilian aspects where military vessels are not appropriate.

Instead of supporting and upgrading an orphan platform like Choules, a new LHD would simply utilize the same upgrades as the other LHD's.

So you are probably 90% their on theoretical crewing, and actual platform procurement you are probably looking at more like <$500m. Money, but not impossible amounts. Of course this is on the presumption things that are no long there haven't already been gobbled up by something else. DFAT is apparently focusing most of their assistance on the South Pacific and less on wider global aid (africa, mid east, south america). So some money will come from prioritising.

But you have a tremendous gain in capability. 3 full LHD's. If we are talking about projecting power throughout our region, the acquisition of another strategic projection ship (borrowing the Spanish name) would be core to that. I think we would have to moderate our view of the replacement of LCH to fewer (say 2) and not particularly massive. The third LHD I would think really wouldn't need a whole bunch of new landing craft, we can manage with what we already have from the LHD pool of landing craft and there are new acquisitions in that pipe anyway. The USMC could then embark more personnel and assets, as could other allies. We then really become the key facilitators for the region.

With 3 we can be a lot more active in our projection, and have a lot more active presence across the regions. The LHD's are powerful symbols of regional power. When they do turn up, people notice, leaders notice, and it sends a clear signal about Australia's commitment and capability. We can fill it with Australian army, USMC, NZ, UK, French, Singapore, experts, and make them feel part of a much larger team, but in a way that isn't overbearing or outside of what they are comfortable with. With a third LHD your getting at least 50% more presence and projection. Plus your lifting off the purely humanitarian/DFAT role off the LHDs and supporting that in a much more appropriate and focused way.

With 3 LHD's the full ARG would then have space for some of our smaller allies to participate. Which is super important. If we ever go into to PNG/Fiji/Samoa, you want some of the first people on the ground being other members of pacific island nations. That is absolutely critical. Optics, strategy, diplomatically etc. Plus its no secret, the military in a lot of nations have been historically involved in coups, so really franchising them in closer with us is of paramount importance. Look at how badly we dropped the ball when Timor when shopping for actual real military assistance. Do we really want to force countries like Timor to go to China, out of desperation, for assistance, support and training? When things go south where do you think they will go for advice and support. We are losing generations of key people.

Currently every time someone in the region tries to pull a big amphib operation off it has been compromised, even the Americans were left stranded at Rimpac, and the Brazilians literally got up and left that day, and it didn't exactly smooth over anxieties about commitment and capability. We can no longer rely on powerful friends, the world is now to complicated for that simplistic thinking.

But I know that what I am suggesting is probably not likely. We will, as we often do, aim low, and struggle to meet that. Underestimate the situation we are in and struggle to make it a priority. A 3rd LHD could be built and fitted out pretty quickly, we have done that. A new build of something we don't currently operation seems like a pain in the arse. We would be better off hassling the motherland (or spain) and grab sister for Choules from existing stock.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
All this is very well, but where are you going to get the money from?
I agree, where does the money come from?

But lets go back a step or two, back the bus up, get out and look ahead, look at all the dots on the wall and not this one dot.

All we know at this stage is that the current Government has made an announcement of a 'large and new' ship to do this job, but does anyone seriously think that in the remaining less than six months of this Government that all will be signed, sealed and delivered? I don't.

Firstly an RFI needs to be let, industry will then reply, then Government has to examine those bids, make a short list of a couple of designs, or select one design, then do some more detailed negotiations and finally then have a build contract signed, it's not going to happen.

Realistically this is something that a following Government, either a re-elected Morrison Government (unlikely) or a new Shorten Government (more than likely if the polls are correct), to either follow through with this plan or bin it, I'm not holding my breath either way, and I'm also not holding my breath that this will happen sooner than later regardless.

Everything beyond this is just pure speculation.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
We really don't have much information on what will be required of the new humanitarian ship. To my knowledge, there has never been a ship designed specifically to fill the HADR role. Most seem to be ships of opportunity converted to that role and most seem to fall short of what would be required to do the job properly.

To my way of thinking you will need an extremely large ship with a hospital, lots of space to carry equipment and has the ability to operate in a region with little to no port facilities. Assuming that Australia isn't simply making a political gesture and is genuinely interested in acquiring a ship that can effectively deliver aid in this region, something the size and capability of one of Australia's LHDs isn't entirely out of the question.
 

ngatimozart

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Is this so called HADR ship official government policy? Or is is it just a pollies brain fart because they are attempting to deflect attention away from recent shenanigans? There appears to be nothing concrete on it and it appears that Aussie pollies are heading into election mode due to vague scent of a govts fall whispering nonchalantly though the spring zephyrs around Canberra, so like pollies the world over they'll say anything to garner votes. Never trust a pollie within 600 leagues of a promise. There is time before Xmas for at least one more spill and / or a snap election. :D
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Is this so called HADR ship official government policy? Or is is it just a pollies brain fart because they are attempting to deflect attention away from recent shenanigans? There appears to be nothing concrete on it and it appears that Aussie pollies are heading into election mode due to vague scent of a govts fall whispering nonchalantly though the spring zephyrs around Canberra, so like pollies the world over they'll say anything to garner votes. Never trust a pollie within 600 leagues of a promise. There is time before Xmas for at least one more spill and / or a snap election. :D
It would not surprise me at all if this was just a cynical exercise to counter China's increasing influence in this region. They might not do much more than buy a ship, paint a red cross on the side of it and have it just do port calls around the region. Functionally near useless in a real disaster but a highly visible symbol of Australia's presence in this region.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
When we compare the numbers of the current ships with their lesser number of replacements is it true to consider that the larger ships will be able to spend more time at sea and further , Im just wondering that these larger ships will be more effective on actual days on deployments than the current ships
 
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