Considering Austal have previously used their fabricators from the Philippines in Australia on 457 visas, they may have had issues supporting both Australian and Philippino projects.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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There might have been some issues if they used Philippino workers on this job for other reasons as well. The government has made a big point of how this project would generate Australian jobs ... not jobs for guest workers.
Wow, pretty much covers everything.. baby burkes, the build, decision processes, regrets, opportunities, BAE, Foracs, AWD alliance. It's a good read. Plenty to learn from for the Hunter class.
I heard it mentioned that the sapphire clock will be used to improve JORN, in theory it could be used to improve other radar applications too. I would imagine it would be useful in getting extremely accurate measurements of positions and headings with the more accurate clock, the sort of thing required for ballistic missile interception etc. Also could create improvements in positioning and other technologies as well.
But I would imagine ship based applications could be a decade or more off.
It does give you a useful insight into the problems Australia had with Navantia during the build process. What was originally supposed to be the safe option turned out to be nearly disastrous because of Navantia's lack of experience in even providing drawings let alone heading up the project.
It also shows why BAE has made such a big deal about how the Type 26 is the world's first fully digitally designed warship. It will make the whole shipbuilding process so much easier when you have a virtual 3d version of it sitting on your computer rather than having to rely on half completed drawings.
I think you have been harsh to single out Navantia. There were many failures with the project with both BAE and Forgacs suffering reputational damage for different reasons however, the biggest failure of all, IMHO, was the Alliance structure followed by Gumley’s effort in trying to amalgamate shipbuilding with submarine sustainment, both led to very disfunctional outcomes.
Your right ... there was plenty of blame to share around.
Hopefully lessons have been learned and SEA 5000 will proceed a lot more smoothly.
Every shipbuilding program has its challenges; SEA 5000 will almost certainly be no different in that respect.
In the case of SEA 4000 to blame Navantia would be too simplistic. As ASPI and the ANAO have both pointed out,the real culprit was the break in shipbuilding in Australia and the setting up of a new and untried shipyard with a new project from a new country with a new ship designer who had never had his designs built by a third party in the past and who was not a party in the build contract. Some of those at least were unique to SEA 4000 but there is no doubt that some similar issue will exist for the new programs. It will be interesting to see how they are dealt with; at least they have the benefit of learning from 4000.
As for blame, there are presently two pretty good Australian built ships out there and a third is well on the way to completion.
In the case of SEA 4000 to blame Navantia would be too simplistic. As ASPI and the ANAO have both pointed out,the real culprit was the break in shipbuilding in Australia and the setting up of a new and untried shipyard with a new project from a new country with a new ship designer who had never had his designs built by a third party in the past and who was not a party in the build contract. Some of those at least were unique to SEA 4000 but there is no doubt that some similar issue will exist for the new programs. It will be interesting to see how they are dealt with; at least they have the benefit of learning from 4000.
As for blame, there are presently two pretty good Australian built ships out there and a third is well on the way to completion.
A fascinating case study. Should be required reading by all people studying project management and engineering. While not interested in blame, I think it is clear there is plenty of that to go around, I think it gives an insight into the difficulties big projects like this can have. That there will be a wide variety of poor choices, setbacks, problems, challenges, changes, and difficulties that will occur throughout the project. At the end of the day the ships were built and are already being the strategic assets they need to be, just at the right time as well.
I don't think these are uniquely Australian problems either. UK, Canada, Germany have their own problems too. The US also has issues, but with the volume and money they throw at it, from our perspective it often seems very minor. There are dozens of military projects in the billion dollar range that are in limbo world wide.
I am noticing on Linkedin the sea5000 is well underway with plenty of new appointments of roles for that project. Sea1000 is also rolling on.
I am hoping projects and lessons learned from this aren't just applied to naval ship building projects, but to other projects too.
I don't think these are uniquely Australian problems either. UK, Canada, Germany have their own problems too. The US also has issues, but with the volume and money they throw at it, from our perspective it often seems very minor. There are dozens of military projects in the billion dollar range that are in limbo world wide.
I am noticing on Linkedin the sea5000 is well underway with plenty of new appointments of roles for that project. Sea1000 is also rolling on.
I am hoping projects and lessons learned from this aren't just applied to naval ship building projects, but to other projects too.
There certainly are a number of countries that should have a good hard look at the Australian experience.
For example Canada hasn't built a warship in over 20 years and is now about to embark on its most ambitious shipbuilding program ... good luck with that.
I think in Canada's case the biggest problem will be the pollies and the bureaucracy.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
....and our failing economy, a consequence of junior primarily.
I think they will have a particularly challenging time. It isn't like their other acquisitions, even the completely OTS ones haven't gone particularly well. Early signs don't look particularly promising either. I wonder where they will look for staff when they have problems.
It will be interesting to see how the AU, UK, CA and US programs all progress and the specific fitout of each.
I suspect there will be a lot of headhunting over the next decade. It might be a good time to be working in the shipbuilding industry. Particularly if you like to travel.
I’m feeling somewhat nostalgic today and as the new Sydney has recently been launched I thought I’d share my first sea draft experience in the HMAS Sydney A214. I completed four trips to Vung Tau in ‘69-70.
I do appear in the video as one of the fresh faced youths on the Bridge and I also was the Coxn of one of the LCM 6s seen unloading the troops.
I do appear in the video as one of the fresh faced youths on the Bridge and I also was the Coxn of one of the LCM 6s seen unloading the troops.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
You may have known CHIEF Shipwright (later WO) 'Dusty' Durston (a near neighbor - since deceased)? He told me many times about modifying the deck for FERRY ops. He started out in the Merchant Navy, joining the RAN with Ted Kennell who went on to become a Sea Venom Observer, sadly lost at sea 28 Apr 1966 when arresting wire broke, crew ejected but not enough margin for LEUT Kennell. My only visit to SYDNEY was in 1963 (when SYDNEY alongside G.I.) as a schoolboy being brainwashed into joining the RAN instead of the RAAF. I was sorely disappointed that there were no aircraft onboard but lunch in the Officers Mess/Wardroom was fantastic - the bread buns a delight. A few years later 1966 I was 'in the Navy' and on my way to the RAN FAA. <sigh>
I was sorely disappointed that there were no aircraft onboard but lunch in the Officers Mess/Wardroom was fantastic - the bread buns a delight. A few years later 1966 I was 'in the Navy' and on my way to the RAN FAA. <sigh>
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I was in her 70-71 as a MIDN; besides the obligatory Vietnam trips we went to the west coast of the US to pick up some A4s for Spaz, and then on to British Columbia for the Canadian Centennial celebrations. Great trip, marred by two “interesting” events, the Captain missed the ship in Hawaii (he was helo’d out) and an idiot of a junior sailor leapt over the side with a life raft in the middle of one night - he was very lucky to be found by a mership a month or so later; we’d looked for about 24 hours without locating him.
The XO was somebody I’m sure Spaz knows well - Neil Ralph, a very distinguished member of the FAA. He’s still going strong at 86 or so
I had a chuckle when I saw the boys in green unloading an M113 in the video.
Here we are, 49 years later, talking about their replacement on the Oz Army thread.
I think they’ve earned their retirement.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
'spoz' you had some good trips. First ran into then LCDR Neil Ralph when he boarded ANZAC lateish 1967 for his WatchKeeping Certificate (training destroyer then) as my small group of middies disembarked on way to flying training (we were delayed so took a couple of months cooling our heels as general watch dogsbodies on that OPEN BRIDGE - great in the tropics!). Neil (now RADM retired) started out as a Sea Venom Observer then Pilot then OIC RANHFV1 whilst recently the entire HFV were awarded an UNIT CITATION: RAN Helicopter Flight Vietnam Awarded Unit Citation for Gallantry | Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia & Message from COMFAA for the RANHFV | Fleet Air Arm Association of Australia PHOTO: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/UCG-1.jpg
"Commanding Officer Flight 1, Rear Admiral Neil Ralph, AO,DSC, RAN (Retd) (right), presents the Unit Citation for Gallantry Burgee (pennant) to Commanding Officer 723 Squadron, Commander Bruce Willington, RAN, at the presentation of the Unit Citation held at the Australian War Memorial, Canberra. (Navy News)"
"Commanding Officer Flight 1, Rear Admiral Neil Ralph, AO,DSC, RAN (Retd) (right), presents the Unit Citation for Gallantry Burgee (pennant) to Commanding Officer 723 Squadron, Commander Bruce Willington, RAN, at the presentation of the Unit Citation held at the Australian War Memorial, Canberra. (Navy News)"
NUSHIP Brisbane is due to arrive at FBE Garden Island tomorrow and will be commissioned shortly.
I saw her alongside in Adelaide 2 weeks ago and close up they are huge (for us 60s and 70s era oldies) compared to T12s and Darings.
The Steel Cat will be back!
I saw her alongside in Adelaide 2 weeks ago and close up they are huge (for us 60s and 70s era oldies) compared to T12s and Darings.
The Steel Cat will be back!
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