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matt00773

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Will the RAN make its recommendations to the government purely based on what they perceive to be the best ASW vessel?

That there is even a competition to select a new frigate is not a strong vote of confidence in the Hobart design. Both the type26 and FREMM have stronger claims as ASW platforms then the Hobart class. Navantia may have a lot of convincing to do that they have been able to improve the ASW capability of the F-5000 over what the RAN already knows of the Hobart class.
Without knowing exactly what the requirements for SEA 5000 are, its difficult to know what the criteria and weightings are for evaluation. The reason there is a competition though has to do with Australian defence procurement policy which enforces competition, and which in turn promotes innovation and better solutions. Given the SEA 4000 and SEA 5000 requirements are different, it wouldn't be (legally) possible to just continue with the Hobart class.

As far as the strength of the F-5000 design is concerned, we have to remember that it has made it to the last round of the competition, so it has to have something going for it. I do agree though that ASW capability (hull / propulsion) seems to be its biggest liability.

| Capability Acquisition and Sustainment
 
Will the RAN make its recommendations to the government purely based on what they perceive to be the best ASW vessel?

That there is even a competition to select a new frigate is not a strong vote of confidence in the Hobart design. Both the type26 and FREMM have stronger claims as ASW platforms then the Hobart class. Navantia may have a lot of convincing to do that they have been able to improve the ASW capability of the F-5000 over what the RAN already knows of the Hobart class.

Chief of Navy Speeches: Naval Warfare Officers Association | Royal Australian Navy

The link is to a speech given by the CNS to the Naval Warfare Officers Association. The comments by the CNS in relation to Theatre ASW are very interesting and may go some way to addressing your question.

In relation to the Hobart Class, advice included in the link about the Govt announcement confirms that considerable work has been undertaken on the suitability of the design for ASW including commonality of platforms and systems.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Chief of Navy Speeches: Naval Warfare Officers Association | Royal Australian Navy

The link is to a speech given by the CNS to the Naval Warfare Officers Association. The comments by the CNS in relation to Theatre ASW are very interesting and may go some way to addressing your question.

In relation to the Hobart Class, advice included in the link about the Govt announcement confirms that considerable work has been undertaken on the suitability of the design for ASW including commonality of platforms and systems.
That's an old speech but still relevant.
With regards to "theatre ASW he was speaking to the whole spectrum of ASW capability and not specific to any platform so I don't think there's anything to take from it regarding final choice for SEA5000.
Theatre is the only way to regard ASW. Surface units are important but are not of primary importance to it, they provide sensors and weapons of last resort and if they need to be used the tactical advantage has already been lost.
 

spoz

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Will the RAN make its recommendations to the government purely based on what they perceive to be the best ASW vessel?
Although I’m not on the inside of this one, the answer is “probably not”. We don’t know what was in the RFT but given these will be MSCs which have to last 30 years or so, the evaluation will almost certainly determine which is the best value for money solution to all the aspects of the RFT. Apart from the technical, which will certainly include more than ASW, there will be industrial, commercial and of course financial, which is likely to include estimated through life costs. It will almost certainly be the solution which emerges from the top of all that, with no aspect necessarily obviously dominant from the outside or even, possibly, on the inside. As always, the final outcome is likely to be the result of innumerable compromises and trade offs.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Although I’m not on the inside of this one, the answer is “probably not”. We don’t know what was in the RFT but given these will be MSCs which have to last 30 years or so, the evaluation will almost certainly determine which is the best value for money solution to all the aspects of the RFT. Apart from the technical, which will certainly include more than ASW, there will be industrial, commercial and of course financial, which is likely to include estimated through life costs. It will almost certainly be the solution which emerges from the top of all that, with no aspect necessarily obviously dominant from the outside or even, possibly, on the inside. As always, the final outcome is likely to be the result of innumerable compromises and trade offs.
I am not entirely sure how the selection process is handled ... but I suspect you are right in that the various stakeholders will be pushing their own agendas. I don't know if the navy is really all that concerned about the financial or industrial aspects of this project. Their own evaluation might centre on the actual capability and suitability of each of the contenders. On the other hand the government will want to spend as little money as possible while appeasing swinging electorates in South Australia and West Australia.

With the decision possibly only weeks away I can't say that I am really confident about picking a winner. A year ago I would have said it was Navantia's decision to lose. Now I think it is pretty even three-way comp.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Will the RAN make its recommendations to the government purely based on what they perceive to be the best ASW vessel?

That there is even a competition to select a new frigate is not a strong vote of confidence in the Hobart design. Both the type26 and FREMM have stronger claims as ASW platforms then the Hobart class. Navantia may have a lot of convincing to do that they have been able to improve the ASW capability of the F-5000 over what the RAN already knows of the Hobart class.
Not necessarily. Perhaps not even likely. One has to remember that the Hobart-class AWD's have a specific role of providing for area air defence, much like the previous Perth-class DDG's and then upgraded Adelaide-class FFG's had. The frigates(?) to be constructed for SEA 5000 are to replace the ANZAC-class FFH's, albeit with larger and significantly more capable vessels. The use of the Aegis CMS strongly suggests a much more robust air defence capability than even the upgraded ANZAC-class frigates kitted out with CEA-FAR and CEA-Mount and up to 32 ESSM. It is also quite likely that the SEA 5000 vessels will have a more robust ASW capability, since the FFH's currently rely upon a hull-mounted sonar and a pair of triple 324 mm LWT tubes, in addition to possibly having a single MH-60R 'Romeo' embarked.

Honestly though, the impression I have gotten paying attention to those with experience in ASW ops makes me think that the ability to have a pair of naval helicopters embarked is more valuable than an acoustically 'quiet' hull. Ideally of course one would want a vessel to be able to embark a pair of naval helicopters, a quality towed sonar array, an acoustically 'quiet' hull, and a quality hull-mounted sonar. However, if fitting all of these features plus the other capabilities desired for the SEA 5000 vessels is not possible, that I strongly suspect that the ASW performance of the hull itself will be considered less important.

Consider for example, how and where the ADFis likely to conduct both offensive and defensive ASW operations. I strongly suspect that whenever and wherever possible, ASW operations are going to be a joint RAAF-RAN effort using airborne, surface, and subsurface assets to detect and drive off, neutralize, or destroy hostile subs in an integrated fashion. As such, the importance would be what specific platforms can bring to the ASW system as a whole would be of greater value than the individual capability of a specific platform. Things have moved on quite a bit since a number of the NATO member-states had their navies start specializing in ASW operations.

What the RAN should be able to do in the coming decade is send a sub or subs into a potential choke point ahead of a task force or high value asset to sanitize the area, and within a number of areas within the region provide support using land-based P-8A Poseidons to create an outer detection/engagement layer. This would then be followed up with an middle detection/engagement layer provided by embarked naval helicopters. The inner layer would be provided by the escorting frigates/destroyers using their onboard and towed sonar arrays and LWT launchers (and ASROC if that enters service). Realistically though, if the plan is to rely upon the screening escorts, then I believe something is wrong with the plan as that would mean the attacking sub has already penetrated two defensive layers and could likely target vessels with heavyweight torpedoes and/or sub-launched AShM's, most likely from outside the engagement range of any ship-based ASW weaponry.
 

ASSAIL

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Verified Defense Pro
I am not entirely sure how the selection process is handled ... but I suspect you are right in that the various stakeholders will be pushing their own agendas. I don't know if the navy is really all that concerned about the financial or industrial aspects of this project. Their own evaluation might centre on the actual capability and suitability of each of the contenders. On the other hand the government will want to spend as little money as possible while appeasing swinging electorates in South Australia and West Australia.

With the decision possibly only weeks away I can't say that I am really confident about picking a winner. A year ago I would have said it was Navantia's decision to lose. Now I think it is pretty even three-way comp.
I don't think pork barreling is a factor in this decision. The shipyard at Osborne is being built, the shipyard at Henderson is being used and as all three contenders will be built in Osborne the political,consequences of choice have no effect.
Where politics may be considered is the extras promised by the contenders, Fincantieri say they will build cruise ship blocs, BAE have pushed the future deals with the RN and extra trade post Brexit and so on.
Uniforms will make a recommendation to Cabinets Defence and Security/ Foreign Affairs Committee or whatever it's called these days and that's where the decision rests with all the financial, trade and strategic circumstances considered.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I certainly think there is a balance between ASW and ASuW and Anti Air. Given recent developments both technologically and politically, there is probably more of a shift. Aegis and the new consoles speak to that fact and then rolling them back into the AWD give a pretty clear indication of future priorities.

It is certainly a 3 way tussle, it just depends where priorities lie and the inherent capabilities and flaws of each ship. I don't think the extra gravy will come into it. Capability is very important, I think risk and capability will be key deciding factors.

The decision isn't far away so we won't be waiting for long. Like the sub decision, I expect this to get significant press well after the announcement.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There has been a lot of comment about the various ASW capabilities between the three SEA5000 contenders, about their sensors, system mintegration with those sensors and the CMS, various towed arrays and the future development path for both the frigates and the DDGs.
The linked article really is one of the more concise discussions on all of these topics and brings it together in an easy side by side comparison.

Special Report: Sea 5000 and ASW capability – making sense of a complex picture - Australian Defence Magazine
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Looking forward to Australia's decision as it should start a discussion here as to the progress (i.e. lack of) of our CSC decision.
 
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Meriv90

Active Member
I'm new, I just wanted to drop here the fact Fincantieri has already ordered 3 ship(cruise i imagine) blocks (is it the correct term in english? ) from australian companies :)

To give an entity of the cruise ship building opportunities Fincantieri has 30bln orderbook and STX France (now under Fincantieri controll at 51%) has another 15bln backlog.

Right now we have(I'm Italian from Venice) partnered with CSSC for the Asian market that is growing way to fast but you realize how it would be better, specially from a point of IP, working with you more than them.
You can check the international cruise order book here
Cruise Ship Orderbook

P.S. Thanks for the reports they are really interesting, even more for me that im a noob in defense matters (i like the commissions, they feel like a match :p)
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
I don't think pork barreling is a factor in this decision. The shipyard at Osborne is being built, the shipyard at Henderson is being used and as all three contenders will be built in Osborne the political,consequences of choice have no effect.
Where politics may be considered is the extras promised by the contenders, Fincantieri say they will build cruise ship blocs, BAE have pushed the future deals with the RN and extra trade post Brexit and so on.
Uniforms will make a recommendation to Cabinets Defence and Security/ Foreign Affairs Committee or whatever it's called these days and that's where the decision rests with all the financial, trade and strategic circumstances considered.
The politicians will certainly be looking at the extras ... and I think this is where Navantia has the weakest claim. I still think Navantia is probably the favourite but it certainly isn't promising any extra benefits compared to the other contenders.

The UK has hinted that it may be interested in acquiring CEAFAR and deploying its ships to this region. However they aren't flush with cash and the Royal Navy isn't the force it used to be. It is possible that they won't be able to afford CEAFAR or the cost of deploying its navy on the other side of the planet. Effectively all they may be offering is a paper ship and a lot of promises.

As Merriv90 has pointed out Fincantieri have already awarded contracts to Australian companies. When you take into account that their ships are already in service, that these ships specialise in the ASW role and that they are offering benefits to Australian industry it may just pip Navantia at the post.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There has been a lot of comment about the various ASW capabilities between the three SEA5000 contenders, about their sensors, system mintegration with those sensors and the CMS, various towed arrays and the future development path for both the frigates and the DDGs.
The linked article really is one of the more concise discussions on all of these topics and brings it together in an easy side by side comparison.

Special Report: Sea 5000 and ASW capability – making sense of a complex picture - Australian Defence Magazine
I've reread this link today and I think I have severely underestimated the Hobart Class ASW capability.

The article summarises Bi-Static ops(where ships sonars, HMS/VDS, can operate together as well as independently, so that the HMS transmits and the VDS receives) This requires integrated ASW processing architectureand states that the Hobart Class are some of the only ships in the world that have this capability.

In the Conclusion, it says "what rapidly becomes clear from a direct comparison of the reference ship ASW configurations is that they do not all provide a forward step from the DDGs in key elements of ASW capability".

Of course the link refers to the reference ships only so I wait patiently to see the outcome.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Integration and capability is likely to win out over things like noise level (which is as always more of a combination of conditions and requirements than a single number). The DDG is the base line to beat, risk and future growth is another issues to consider. Which might then be fed back into the AWD's as upgrades. It comes into systems of systems and higher levels of integration. The days that you just install a system and a console for that system and any data was then manually shared over voice are over. Everything needs to be able to be integrated with everything else. Sensor fusion, processing combining for complete situational awareness and options to deal with it.

Thinking back to the mh370 searches, it became apparent that a lot of navies don't have high levels of successful integration as they ended up detecting themselves and their own sensors a lot of the time. Wizbang gear, but not optimized to work together in a cohesive fashion.

Given we are pretty close to the announcement, I am going with F-5000. I can't help but feel, we are looking for something that is basically a variation of the AWD, not an entirely new platform with the challenges that entails.
 
Integration and capability is likely to win out over things like noise level (which is as always more of a combination of conditions and requirements than a single number). The DDG is the base line to beat, risk and future growth is another issues to consider. Which might then be fed back into the AWD's as upgrades. It comes into systems of systems and higher levels of integration. The days that you just install a system and a console for that system and any data was then manually shared over voice are over. Everything needs to be able to be integrated with everything else. Sensor fusion, processing combining for complete situational awareness and options to deal with it.

Thinking back to the mh370 searches, it became apparent that a lot of navies don't have high levels of successful integration as they ended up detecting themselves and their own sensors a lot of the time. Wizbang gear, but not optimized to work together in a cohesive fashion.

Given we are pretty close to the announcement, I am going with F-5000. I can't help but feel, we are looking for something that is basically a variation of the AWD, not an entirely new platform with the challenges that entails.
Just a bit of marketing from Navantia but shows a little more detail than previous models and a bit more info on ASW improvements and hangar space and utilisation.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Nice piece. Just had a brief discussion over at the RCN thread about how little marketing on defence info occurs in Canada. I think if you asked the average Canadian what the options are for the CSC program, they would have a WTF is the CSC moment. On the other hand ask a Canadian about the JSF, they will upchuck the usual Wheeler- Sprey bovine fecal matter.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Just a bit of marketing from Navantia but shows a little more detail than previous models and a bit more info on ASW improvements and hangar space and utilisation.
Couple of things I noticed ... first, the hanger utilisation but also that the forward funnel seems to be blanked. That is either an oversite by the modeller or it means they have reallocated that space.

Also I wonder if this ship will still be referred to as a frigate given that it looks like it will be a more capable han the ship it was based on.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The Navantia video doesn't really show much new detail other than two hangar door access and how perhaps the side access would work. I think the funnel is just normal, depends on the view. I also notice during the video there are different models of the F-5000 used.

upload_2018-4-11_11-42-18.png
The aviation capability looks good. If the ASW is also good, can't see why it wouldn't be a competitive option. It isn't quite the flex space of the Type 26, but there is still significant room. 9 of these would be pretty handy.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just a bit of marketing from Navantia but shows a little more detail than previous models and a bit more info on ASW improvements and hangar space and utilisation.
Couple of things I noticed ... first, the hanger utilisation but also that the forward funnel seems to be blanked. That is either an oversite by the modeller or it means they have reallocated that space.

Also I wonder if this ship will still be referred to as a frigate given that it looks like it will be a more capable han the ship it was based on.
I do not see where you see a blank. However, you will see engine room in takes. Given the engine rooms are separate they have to have an exhaust. Some of the earlier rendering has the same issue but this was because the rendering changed the fore mast house structure and top of funnel and the outlets were not captured. The rendering posted above appears to show exhausts.

What interest me is the change to the superstructure (mission bay/second hanger and plated all the way through to the bridge) and the apparent additional VDS capability (it looks like a CAPTAS-4 VDS)
 
I do not see where you see a blank. However, you will see engine room in takes. Given the engine rooms are separate they have to have an exhaust. Some of the earlier rendering has the same issue but this was because the rendering changed the fore mast house structure and top of funnel and the outlets were not captured. The rendering posted above appears to show exhausts.

What interest me is the change to the superstructure (mission bay/second hanger and plated all the way through to the bridge) and the apparent additional VDS capability (it looks like a CAPTAS-4 VDS)
I liked the "We're ready to go, right now" line at the end. A big selling point especially with the headlines in the news.
 
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