Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Todjaeger]

That German Braunschweig-class corvette is seriously armed for such a small ship. 76mm, 27mm x 2, 4 ASM, 2 RAM launchers with 42 rounds, and 34 mines with a crew of 65.
Man, that's seriously loaded for bear.
12 of them would be nice!! Lol

It does really illustrate though, both the cost and capability difference between an OPV and a corvette, or specifically a guided missile corvette that are only about 200 tonnes difference in displacement, albeit ~9 m length difference as well.

For the RAN, I would just as soon not have any corvettes in service. The German corvette has a published range of 4,000 n miles @15 knots, which means it would likely struggle to keep up with major RAN units like the frigates or destroyers, whose range is 5k to 6k n miles @18 knots. I am confident that the corvette could reach and maintain a speed of 18 knots, but would then have a range somewhat less than 4,000 n miles meaning they would need to undergo RAS and/or make fuel stops more frequently.

 

[spoz]

Plus, the design of those particular ships, while fine for somewhere like the Baltic, would be likely to struggle in the long swells experienced in our part of the world.

The range is an issue is well, although it is worth remembering that the DEs had a range of 5,200 at 12 knots, which was about 4000 at 15 knots (routing speed for the time) and a bit over 3000 at 18 knots. It was a bit of a problem, but we lived with it. Of more concern might be the 7 days endurance - that’s not Sydney to Darwin.

 

[iambuzzard]

It does really illustrate though, both the cost and capability difference between an OPV and a corvette, or specifically a guided missile corvette that are only about 200 tonnes difference in displacement, albeit ~9 m length difference as well.

For the RAN, I would just as soon not have any corvettes in service. The German corvette has a published range of 4,000 n miles @15 knots, which means it would likely struggle to keep up with major RAN units like the frigates or destroyers, whose range is 5k to 6k n miles @18 knots. I am confident that the corvette could reach and maintain a speed of 18 knots, but would then have a range somewhat less than 4,000 n miles meaning they would need to undergo RAS and/or make fuel stops more frequently.

Fair enough, but if we want an inner layer with teeth close to our region it does make sense. The destroyers, frigates and subs to keep them at arm's length with something like corvettes to catch any stragglers that get through. The Arafuras certainly have an important role to play, but with the fluid situation we find ourselves in now with no 10 year warning it does help to have an extra round in the clip.

 

[iambuzzard]

Plus, the design of those particular ships, while fine for somewhere like the Baltic, would be likely to struggle in the long swells experienced in our part of the world.

The range is an issue is well, although it is worth remembering that the DEs had a range of 5,200 at 12 knots, which was about 4000 at 15 knots (routing speed for the time) and a bit over 3000 at 18 knots. It was a bit of a problem, but we lived with it. Of more concern might be the 7 days endurance - that’s not Sydney to Darwin.

When the s*** hits the fan beggars can't be choosers.

 

[spoz]

No, but I’d rather have more Mogamis than corvettes - particularly if I have to serve in one. I’m more likely to come home.

 

[iambuzzard]

No, but I’d rather have more Mogamis than corvettes - particularly if I have to serve in one. I’m more likely to come home.

Absolutely we'd all prefer more Mogamis but do politicians care about us anymore?
Imagine a fleet with 6 AWDs, 6 Hunters and 15 Mogamis, plus unmanned missile barges!
In a perfect world we wouldn't need them, but we don't live in a perfect world.
Besides, all us rational beings on this forum want everyone to come home if it goes pear shaped.

 

[StevoJH]

It does really illustrate though, both the cost and capability difference between an OPV and a corvette, or specifically a guided missile corvette that are only about 200 tonnes difference in displacement, albeit ~9 m length difference as well.

For the RAN, I would just as soon not have any corvettes in service. The German corvette has a published range of 4,000 n miles @15 knots, which means it would likely struggle to keep up with major RAN units like the frigates or destroyers, whose range is 5k to 6k n miles @18 knots. I am confident that the corvette could reach and maintain a speed of 18 knots, but would then have a range somewhat less than 4,000 n miles meaning they would need to undergo RAS and/or make fuel stops more frequently.

Other than self control and resisting scope creep there is no reason why you couldn't take all the systems and weapons that are currently in the K-130's and putting them into a larger 2,500-3,000t hull to increase endurance. I like the K-130's, I think they are cool.

Of course if you are absolutely insane you could go the other route, and take the same hull and turn it into the Sa'ar 6, I just don't understand how they managed to fit everything into those things. I'd hate to think how survivable they are if they actually take a hit.

 

[Bob53]

So someone has activated their brain cells

I’m all for an Australian fleet but concerned at the level of subsidy it will need, how competitive it will be and how long it will take the MWU to hold a gun to the governments head

 

[old faithful]

Just came across this snippet on defence connect, not sure how creditable the site is, but there are claims that searam is being fitted to the HOBARTS.

 

[Stampede]

Absolutely we'd all prefer more Mogamis but do politicians care about us anymore?
Imagine a fleet with 6 AWDs, 6 Hunters and 15 Mogamis, plus unmanned missile barges!
In a perfect world we wouldn't need them, but we don't live in a perfect world.
Besides, all us rational beings on this forum want everyone to come home if it goes pear shaped.

The Arafura conversation is not really about comparing it to this or that,but rather acknowledging the reality that all six of them will be in service by 2029.
That’s six 80 m 1640t vessels of actual reality before we see any Hunters, Mogami , upgraded Hobarts or SSNs.
That bigger more potent navy is still a long way off into the future

Now Arafura’s potential is still limited and expectations should not be grand.
That said there is scope in the Arafura’s design to make them a greater asset than what they are today.

With our little 9 to 10 vessel fleet most of which are either old or out of the water with upgrades it seems prudent to capitalise on what you have that’s actually new and entering service.

No doubt this debate will continue as defence dangle carrots or curiosities for us to ponder.

I have a feeling Navy will ( reluctantly ) evolve this ship and would not be surprised if a couple more are added to the fleets numbers.
Ties in well with their construction timeframe and also a federal election in a couple of years time.
Or potentially maybe sooner !!!!!!!

turbulent world and all

Cheers S

 

[StingrayOZ]

If man power is similar, crewing is similar, purchase price is considered over the lifetime of the platform. Mogami every time.

It does really illustrate though, both the cost and capability difference between an OPV and a corvette, or specifically a guided missile corvette that are only about 200 tonnes difference in displacement, albeit ~9 m length difference as well.

Uprunning Arafura always comes back, I don't know why, its the wrong ship to try to up-gun into a corvette. Not just for Australia for anyone. That 10m is ultra important on a smaller ship (or any ship). That is essentially your weapon carrying capability.

The Bulgerian MMPV is based off the OPV90 (10m longer version of the OPV80). IT has 8 cell VLS, 2xtwin RB15, OTO 76mm, 35mm millennium CIWS, two torpedo launchers, decoys, an actual Hangar. 24kt and range of 3000nm@14kts. Crew of 70.

Terrible ship for Australia. May make more sense for our northern friends. Where you country is located directly next to another. Singapore has 500t corvettes with 76mm guns, missiles, etc, but they don't have a 21 day patrol endurance.

 

[SamB]

It is a common error for politicians to ignore the price of defeat. A rational person preserves life by developing redundancy, ensures that no single tactical error or stroke of fortune can dismantle one's strategy. People here do not say things for the sake of it. When the pear shaped reality of conflict arrives, the conclusion will already be written by superior preparation. Or not. To elaborate any further would reveal the geometry beneath the chaos.

In my view arbitrary numbers of "X" capability is a psychological wall. No one can really predict how opponents will react. With the amounts of treasure going into defence as a minimum from here on out there is no reason to rest on current numbers for this or that capability. Indeed, everyone understands the assignment. Any advisory who studies Australia will realise that the path to victory will require a price they cannot afford to pay "insuring" that all out bloodlust is never fought.

 

[SammyC]

The Arafura conversation is not really about comparing it to this or that,but rather acknowledging the reality that all six of them will be in service by 2029.
That’s six 80 m 1640t vessels of actual reality before we see any Hunters, Mogami , upgraded Hobarts or SSNs.
That bigger more potent navy is still a long way off into the future

Now Arafura’s potential is still limited and expectations should not be grand.
That said there is scope in the Arafura’s design to make them a greater asset than what they are today.

With our little 9 to 10 vessel fleet most of which are either old or out of the water with upgrades it seems prudent to capitalise on what you have that’s actually new and entering service.

No doubt this debate will continue as defence dangle carrots or curiosities for us to ponder.

I have a feeling Navy will ( reluctantly ) evolve this ship and would not be surprised if a couple more are added to the fleets numbers.
Ties in well with their construction timeframe and also a federal election in a couple of years time.
Or potentially maybe sooner !!!!!!!

turbulent world and all

Cheers S

I think what I come back to with these discussions, is at the end of the day we still need a vessel like the Arafura to do the longer distance patrolling and surveillance. It can't be done by the Capes, and its too much of an opportunity cost to do it with frigates. And there are lots of things aircraft can't do, like persistence. I think for the next 10 years that is still likely to be the dominant picture.

I think people would be surprised by just how much of the frigate and destroyer fleet uptime gets allocated to patrols and surveillance. When I was at sea, it ended up being about half our job. I think even with six Arafuras permanently allocated to patrols and surveillance, it would still not completely cover the task.

If we upgun the Arafuras, then we still find ourselves in the situation of needing the Arafuras to do the open ocean patrolling and surveilance, just we have spent a lot of money on equipment they will not use for that purpose.

So you end up where you started. Whether we stick with the current armament, or install a whole lot more, the ship is still going to be doing the same function, because that's what's required.

The Arafura's benefit is that it releases a frigate to do something more important, and we can get the very best bang for buck out of this small fleet of real combatants.

With reflection, I think if there is a pot of money available for the Arafuras (which there appears to be), then a few more basic hulls allows more patrols and reconnaissance, say three for an additional continuous loop, releasing another 1.5 frigates (on my maths above) for other more muscular jobs. And for what is left over then upgrade drone support systems and surveillance equipment.

If I had a choice between a big gun and some very fancy front end ESM/ECM gear for the Arafuras, I'm thinking the EW suite is the better option. Most of this equipment is relatively small and it looks like a radar farm. It turns an Arafura however into a floating MC-55 Perigrine. Imagine that capability.

Add to it some very intelligent drones with say a 300-400km range (which the old S100 camcopter had), then it can surveil a seriously large area of ocean.

 

[Stampede]

Cutting back six of the intended 12 OPVs was a false economy.
A dozen OPV‘s in service by the early 2030s would’ve been prudent for the reasons SammyC mentioned.
Hopefully that will evolve.
Read on the defence connect site someone mentioned the weight of the 57mm was proving problematic and the Darussalam class often sailed with reduced ammunition to aid sea keeping.
Not sure if true or not but good food for thought re our own OPV expectations.

The 30mm looks like Navy’s future close in weapon so mount that up front.
Revitalise the purchase of the S100
Update the vessels sensors.
Certify the flight deck for the ADFs medium helicopter fleet.
See what coin and weight/ space options are left
Use , test, think , imagine , employ , explore ,
Be open to embrace what it can do,not what in cannot

Cheers

 

[StingrayOZ]

When I was at sea, it ended up being about half our job. I think even with six Arafuras permanently allocated to patrols and surveillance, it would still not completely cover the task.

I think that is the crux of it. Exactly how much capability we need in that space. Looking at that and bridging between future projects/build as well. When do the next projects actually happen. Are more Arafuras what we need to do it? Starting a new project would be a delay and a PIA. I don't see the adoption of any other OPV or corvette hull, creating a new project, with new contractors, and a new clean sheet build.

If we are going to build more Arafuras, I would think if we want more capability, more growth potential, longer endurance, more embarked drone/UUV/UAV, more potential weapon capability (including electronic, decoys etc), then build the hull OPV90 version, which is now a OTS design. *IF*.

They aren't corvettes. They are an OPV with some weapon mounting spots, weight and space for other things. They aren't fast, they aren't particularly agile, they aren't damage control focused, they aren't intended for high intensity use, they have limitations on power/cooling, duty cycle.

Australian waters aren't super dense with shipping. Almost all our waters have shipping that mostly is related to Australia (delivering for or to). Fishing is probably the only significant exception to that. Most fishing vessels aren't heavily armed. But our waters are huge. Dismounted drones are probably the most useful things these will embark. They aren't going to engage anything other than a fishing boat/ship.

As for the 57mm is oversized. maybe.. The US just disabled a container ship with 5 rounds of 127mm..

 

[Tbone]

Would similar to what civmec released be an adequate upgrade? Sonar, NSM? I do hear the 57mm bodas was restricting seas state level so a 40mm bofars instead and mishap launcher on the foredeck with an ecm suite. Honestly it could deliver with drones. I’d call it a multipurpose OPV

 

[SamB]

Would similar to what civmec released be an adequate upgrade? Sonar, NSM? I do hear the 57mm bodas was restricting seas state level so a 40mm bofars instead and mishap launcher on the foredeck with an ecm suite. Honestly it could deliver with drones. I’d call it a multipurpose OPV

When everything is uniform and the objectives are predetermined, robotics and AI can turn the tide and arguably win. But when it comes to the nuances of society, you need human dexterity. Do you really want to confront poor Indonesian villagers just trying to feed their families with something out of "Terminator Salvation"? Just put an 18-year-old on deck with a deck mounted machine gun.


Arguably, Australia's quote unquote sonar settings are about right, maybe, and the NSM is fine for the majors' self-defence. But if the RAN wants mass, volume, and reach that can fire over those fishing fleets, the Arafura has to be fast, smart, and mean—but with a human face and EW suites, and radar farms. Most importantly, it must be part of an integrated, focused ADF. ADF already has PrSM and but you guys really need to work on your Aussie DARPA now, and the Arafura’s cruising and economical speed needs to best the "awesome speed of the LHDs".

 

[StevoJH]

22 knots is fine.

I highly doubt most fishing trawlers would be doing much more than hull speed which would be 10-12 knots for all but the largest.

As long as they have fuel storage, they can refuel land based helicopters as well.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Would similar to what civmec released be an adequate upgrade? Sonar, NSM? I do hear the 57mm bodas was restricting seas state level so a 40mm bofars instead and mishap launcher on the foredeck with an ecm suite. Honestly it could deliver with drones. I’d call it a multipurpose OPV

I don't think NSM is really required, particularly where CIVMEC mockup puts them. The CIVMEC upgrade seemed really odd. I think it was just showing what could be put on it, not that it was a cohesive package.

Civmec Presents Arafura Capability Enhancement At Indopac 2025

Australian shipbuilder Civmec has presented a weapons capability enhancement for the Arafura-class OPV at Indo Pacific 2025 in Sydney.

www.navalnews.com

vs

Bulgaria’s First MMPV 90 Corvette Begins Sea Trials - Naval News

The first of two MMPV 90 corvettes for the Bulgarian Navy commenced sea trials sea trials in Varna Bay and Black Sea in November 2025.

www.navalnews.com

Luerssen proposes ‘more bang for your buck’ Navy corvette

Multi-billion-dollar German shipbuilder Lürssen is proposing a ‘more bang for your buck’ C90 corvette for delivery to the Royal Australian Navy by 2028. The German shipbuilder, also known as NV

www.defenceconnect.com.au

I wouldn't recommend fitting out the same as the Bulgarians (who are finishing up sea trials), but the hull is usefully bigger. The additional cost would be ~200t of extra steel. Range can be extended out to 10,000nm and endurance to 30 days. That 50% longer endurance is a huge multiplier. It means you can way more days usefully patrolling. Even if it doesn't do it all the time to have that capability for a deep southern ocean patrol for example. In a world where Greenland sovereignty is under threat, countries are imposing tolls to use what was free passage through straits, Australia has *lots* of water/land claimed in remotes spaces, away from the continent. In a world where sovereignty is under open challenge, even by allies, you want a ship that is capable of patrolling, perhaps able to support a small force a shore etc.

Being a bigger ship, if it had to carry a missile, or a gun, or multiple drones, you wouldn't have to compromise all other aspects of its mission to do it. Giving up aviation for two NSM seems very limiting and poor trade off. How would the platform provide OTH targeting with no aviation? More likely would be fitting mine laying, mine sweeping, anti-drone etc.

 

[spoz]

There was a reason for the initial plan to buy 12 Arafuras; and anybody who has been, say, off Ashmore Reef in a Fremantle or an Armidale with the trades or the monsoon blowing knows what it was. Close in shore, light weight patrol vessels are fine but once you’re well off shore you want a sea kindly hull with a good grip on the water; and that can maintain better than 15 knots or so in SS4.