Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

SammyC

Well-Known Member
There was some that argued we should have went for the FREMM but looking at the sh@t show the Constellation seems to have turned into the choice of the Type 26 may well have been vindicated.


I think we need high-end OPV or Corvette sized vessels as a matter of urgency. The Mogamis will be too big for the constabulary role and the Cape/Arafuras may not be up to dealing with the Chinese Coast Guard and Militia fishing fleets. Corvettes would also give us some cover until we start recieving Australian built Mogamis in the 2030s. Not sure who we could get to build them in a short timeframe but I would think at least 6 to replace the cancelled Arafuras would be a good investment.
Watching how Chinese Coast Guard vessels push around Phillipino Naval ships, I'm not sure even a corvette is suitable in this situation. Their current generation of Coast Guard capital ships are combat frigates in all but name.

I agree, we dodged a bullet by not combining with the Americans on the Constellation program. I think Hunter is already further along the build cycle than poor Constellation.

There seems to be growing support for curtailing the Constellation program at the current 6 in construction hulls. It's no longer a cheap or quick build ship, which is what it was supposed to be. Might as well build more ABs.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
The Navy has a good training system. From having worked in both the civilian world and the military world, the military training investment is an order of magnitude more. It is one area they are very strong on and better than most.

Provided that numbers can be recruited through the front door, and these people can be retained (which defence seems to be turning the corner on) then the training system will deliver for new ship classes.

One item to be aware of is that once a person moves to a ship, the training becomes progressively more platform specific. For instance a marine technician obtains a number of watchkeeping certificates that require that person to understand the equipment down to the piping layout level (I crawled through bilges tracing pipelines when I started). Training then includes detailed specialised shore based courses on the propulsion control system and engine types (MTU and LM2500s for me).

While people can and do move between different platforms, the training does not align and there becomes a requirement to requalify. For instance I first learnt on Manoora an LPA, and then went to the ANZACs, where I spent my first few months back in the bilges tracing pipes.

The end point of that is to say that more patrol poats, OPVs or even corvettes does not directly improve the training ability for ANZACs, Mogamis, Hobarts and Hunters.

Ships can train a lot of people. On an ANZAC for instance we had three marine watchkeeping positions over four shifts, and if needed could have that number again in training. Every year we pumped out a significant portion of our crew size in new qualifications.

So, if you have platforms at sea, even a small number, and the recruitment/retention program is delivering, then you can quickly become sustainable in sea training. Australia could comfortably prepare an initial commissioning crew within a couple of years with some training positions within the Japanese fleet, and could then prepare subsequent crews from that first platform for the rest of the class within reasonable time. After about three hulls the training is at its optimum, and more hulls just makes it more efficient.

The single biggest thing we could do for training is minimise the number of platform types. Orphan ships are difficult to sustain. HMAS Success always suffered this problem.

The Navy also has a group called Sea Training Group. This team is made up of very experienced people who assist ships in advanced training, particularly damage control and war fighting. I used to think they were the most evil people in the world, and most crews get anxiety when they know they are coming aboard. That said, I have never experienced a better training program than what they provide (I have also never been so exhausted).

The Navy also seems to be making more use of shore simulators, and I think this technology has come a long way. I am impressed for instance in the Arafura class training school that has been established in FBW, which I understand has the core equipment available to learn on, including control systems. One would hope that something similar is made for the Mogamis and Hunters.

Given the new Rolls Royce MT30 turbines that are coming in, I hope the Navy invests in new training equipment for the Sydney gas turbine school to go along with its LM2500s.
Thank you for the detailed response

I had an friend some years ago drafting on the ANZAC build

He did lots of pipe work
I naively thought once you had a design it would flow through progressive ship to ship, but no for many years of work there appeared to be modifications.

I guess while there will be local knowledge in any realm there will also be broad knowledge and experience that can be transferred across platforms.
Hopefully the positivity and crew retention continues on the correct path.

Cheers S
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
WA warship tension as Japan queries Austal’s ownership

interesting article in today's West Aust. This is the first time I have seen the issue of Hanwa's stake in Austal becoming visible. No great surprise.

The article refers to organisation level comms (ATLA to NSSG) however I assume this is also at the ministerial level, just more secret.

It's a paywalled article, so I have pasted some of the relevent paragraphs below.

The Sunday Times can reveal Japan’s Defence Ministry has on at least two occasions written to the Defence Department in Canberra about its unease with Hanwha’s proposal to increase its stake in the strategic WA business.

Figures involved in the lucrative frigate project known as SEA3000 have told The Sunday Times that Japan’s Ministry of Defence first raised formal concerns about Hanwha’s takeover bid at least as far back as August last year, well before MHI won the contract.

Several sources have confirmed the Acquisition, Technology & Logistics Agency (ATLA) within Japan’s MOD wrote to Australia’s Defence Department raising concerns about “foreign ownership” of Austal, months after Hanwha launched its initial takeover push.

Last month ATLA is understood to have again written to the Naval Shipbuilding and Sustainment Group (NSSG) within Australia’s Defence Department to more directly express concerns over Hanwha’s yet-to-be-approved takeover bid.
 

Salinger

Member
Upgraded Mogami At Indo Pacific – (Non) Zero Change, Shipbuilder Makes Move
Mk-144 launcher.jpg
Mk-144 launcher integrated into the 06FFM
Unlike SeaRAM the 21 round-Mk 144 launcher directly integrates into onboard sensors for improved range and accuracy.
 

Richo99

Active Member
View attachment 53857
Mk-144 launcher integrated into the 06FFM
Unlike SeaRAM the 21 round-Mk 144 launcher directly integrates into onboard sensors for improved range and accuracy.
This was a strangely written part of the article... was unclear to me if it was saying that Australia would adopt the mk 144 or if it was just pointing out the difference to SeaRAM. All models def show SeaRAM...
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
This was a strangely written part of the article... was unclear to me if it was saying that Australia would adopt the mk 144 or if it was just pointing out the difference to SeaRAM. All models def show SeaRAM...
SeaRam for RANs upgraded Mogamis, both Hughes and Hammond have stated that.
Hunter and every other RAN vessel that uses phalanx = unknown.

Mark 54 torps and NSM, probably 4x4(16)(-different to Japans setup)
 
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SammyC

Well-Known Member
Is the SeaRAM tied into the CMS like the Mk 144?
Phalanx and SeaRAM are completely independent packages. All they require is a 440V power source and cooling water to function. The rest of the ship can be dead and destroyed for all it would care.

They can be mounted to a truck with a port-a-gen. They have a scanning radar, however it only scans an arc of about 120-150deg (cannot do 360 deg) and it has no fancy features like IFF (it has shot down friendly aircraft). It has a local control panel that can be used to configure the system, either manually operating it or setting it to automatic, or offline conducting maintenance.

In a ship scenario they are typically connected to what ever combat system is fitted. This provides the ability to remotely operate the CIWS rather than at the local panel. But it doesn't need this.

When connected to a ships combat system it can take advantage of larger radar systems and operate in a coordinated and integrated manner (i.e the combat system can direct it to engage certain targets and not others). As it has its own radar, this can also be fed into the combat system as another sensor. It can even use this radar as a fire control channel for other weapons.

Its very versitile.
 
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