Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[CJR]

Not wanting to be political, just realistic, given the country of origin of the Typhoon mk30c, i think the chances of an actual order anytime soon are next to zero. Might not be consideted a good look for the Australian government at the moment.

In which case EOS might be expecting interest in the naval version of their R400 RWS...

 

[Armchair]

Even the short-ranged Penguin AShM could deliver a crippling or fatal blow to a patrol boat long before getting into 76 mm gun range.

I would add that so many of the discussions here seem to assume surface ship to surface ship engagements. If the threat comes from a submarine or air or land based ballistic missile then the 76mm (or larger gun) would never get in range of the hostile launch platform. To be sure a 30mm with the right ammunition will provide better defence against some aerial threats but that ship needs a sensor array and operators to guide its munitions.

 

[d-ron84]

I would add that so many of the discussions here seem to assume surface ship to surface ship engagements. If the threat comes from a submarine or air or land based ballistic missile then the 76mm (or larger gun) would never get in range of the hostile launch platform. To be sure a 30mm with the right ammunition will provide better defence against some aerial threats but that ship needs a sensor array and operators to guide its munitions.

I 99.9% agree with you, but there is always an exception.
RIMPAC 2012 RAN FFG "sinks" surfacing enemy "USN" SSN with 76mm gun.
How do I know this? I'm the one who assigned the gun to the Dibbies for Counter-Battery fire

 

[Stampede]

It might be useful to understand how a patrol boat intercepts a civilian vessel.

In the first case it approaches, observes and will make contact with the vessel. More often than not it just issues a move on order, or allow the vessel to continue. Probably well over 70% fall into this category.

If it considers that there is an illegal activity onboard, such as fishing, smuggling ect, then it will look to board and inspect.

If it views that a boarding is required it will assess whether the boarding will be compliant or not (i.e will the vessel personnel resist). In most cases boardings are compliant and an armed boarding party of about 8 people is sent over. The patrol boat will stay close by for support. 25% fall into this category.

If it is non compliant, then a boarding party will not be sent and the patrol boat will remain at a safe distance. I should note here that fishing boats are generally slow and not armed, but they may have people onboard with personal weapons. Its also difficult to climb onto a vessel that is deliberately being obstructive. These are less than 5% of the cases, if that.

In these cases they will hold and call for support. Each scenario is different. In my time on frigates where we had non compliant boardings we would use the helo as overwatch, bring the frigate right in close and call in other ships to help. We would often use multiple boarding parties and have extra people on the water ready for rescue. There were also times where we would use a special forces boarding party to replace the ship's boarding party, and there was a range of other tactics that went with that. Patrol boats would take a similar approach. Call in back up and maintain the scene until they arrive. They will not engage.

I should also note that a patrol boat is rarely rocking up blisfully unaware of the vessel it is intercepting. It will have been despatched after the vessel had already been assessed by another asset (such as a Triton, P8 or satellite). If the vessel was considered a potential threat then something different would have been sent to intercept in the first place.

So, in the case of the hostile militia fishing boat fleet, then the patrol boat is not the asset that would be dealing with it. A frigate would have been despatched with a lot of support. If for some reason the patrol boat ended up in this, it would withdraw to a safe distance and radio in.

The end point is patrol boats and OPVs deal with the 95% of cases that are compliant. Their main weapon is their boarding party, not the fitted gun.

Perhaps in the future hostile fishing boats become more common. The response is possibly likely to be more capable boarding parties rather than larger guns fitted to ships. Perhaps the Arafuras start taking SAS detachments and we look at light helo solutions for them.

If we reach the point of actual conflict with China, then I think the fshing boats will be more worried about prowling ghost sharks with torpedos.

The 5% that requires backup is the interesting one.

Not sure what can be stated in a public forum but in the problematic fishing vessel scenario what does a frigate bring that the Cape class does not.
Alternatively will the Arafura Class be able to substitute a major for that 5% role?

Cheers

 

[iambuzzard]

The 5% that requires backup is the interesting one.

Not sure what can be stated in a public forum but in the problematic fishing vessel scenario what does a frigate bring that the Cape class does not.
Alternatively will the Arafura Class be able to substitute a major for that 5% role?

Cheers

Knowing how China and Middle Eastern terrorists are uparming their "fishing boats", a 25mm or 30mm Typhoon will certainly equal the odds if they have a concealed heavy MG.

 

[SammyC]

The 5% that requires backup is the interesting one.

Not sure what can be stated in a public forum but in the problematic fishing vessel scenario what does a frigate bring that the Cape class does not.
Alternatively will the Arafura Class be able to substitute a major for that 5% role?

Cheers

In part I think the frigate is bigger, faster and more intimidating. Behavours such as ramming are less effective. Frigates can't be outrun by fishing boats. It's more resilient to small arms fire. It's sensors (such as IR) are far better and can see further.

Frigates also have more crew (180 v about 20 on a cape class). They can put more people into boarding parties for a larger response. In my time we ran two full boarding parties (8-10 people each), which was about the same amount of people on a patrol boat total.

An ANZAC frigate could also if required operate a third boat and boarding party. If there is a need to commandeer a vessel, then a frigate can provide a sailing party to do so (bridge officers, bosuns and engineers) in addition to its boarding parties.

All this could be done without compromising the frigate's own warfare and damage control capability.

Furthermore, Frigates have the space to take onboard an additional 30-40 people, say extra boarding parties, or even people following arrests.

Lastly Frigates come with helos, either for overwatch, aerial insertion/recovery or transfers. If need be they can shuttle people back to shore and vice versa. This might be to quickly pickup some extra people without coming into harbour, droping some prisoners off to the local police/border force, or in a worst case enacting a medivac.

And if it all goes to pot then it has a big gun and lots of missiles.

 

[K.I.]

In which case EOS might be expecting interest in the naval version of their R400 RWS...

Yes, the Army's used their stuff for years. They have some much bigger mounts too which could be adapted for the RAN as well as a world beating DE turret. Why isn't the navy using these homegrown products?

 

[Stampede]

In part I think the frigate is bigger, faster and more intimidating. Behavours such as ramming are less effective. Frigates can't be outrun by fishing boats. It's more resilient to small arms fire. It's sensors (such as IR) are far better and can see further.

Frigates also have more crew (180 v about 20 on a cape class). They can put more people into boarding parties for a larger response. In my time we ran two full boarding parties (8-10 people each), which was about the same amount of people on a patrol boat total.

An ANZAC frigate could also if required operate a third boat and boarding party. If there is a need to commandeer a vessel, then a frigate can provide a sailing party to do so (bridge officers, bosuns and engineers) in addition to its boarding parties.

All this could be done without compromising the frigate's own warfare and damage control capability.

Furthermore, Frigates have the space to take onboard an additional 30-40 people, say extra boarding parties, or even people following arrests.

Lastly Frigates come with helos, either for overwatch, aerial insertion/recovery or transfers. If need be they can shuttle people back to shore and vice versa. This might be to quickly pickup some extra people without coming into harbour, droping some prisoners off to the local police/border force, or in a worst case enacting a medivac.

And if it all goes to pot then it has a big gun and lots of missiles.

Thanks for the very detailed reply.

My take is the more our patrol fleet can take on at the lower end the more time the majors have for doing their principle role of warfighting.
Eg not constabulary work.

I don’t see the last fifty years looking like the next fifty in the constabulary role / cross over to a more robust policing role.

Not talking about high end near peer conflict but that grey area realm just above policing work.

I acknowledge we will have to work with what we have ie Capes and Arafura’s ,is it not prudent to add capacity.

The capability mentioned brought to the 5% scenario looks similar to a well equipped Arafura complete with main gun and helicopter or 200kg size UAV.

Not perfect but maybe good enough to not tie up a Frigate doing this role.
Same for the Capes.
Not school boy fantasies but a 50 plus meter vessel can carry more.

Suggest we need to not think and carry on like the past and adjust our expectations for the years ahead and how we meet the broad range of contingencies.

Nine majors next year will be thinly spread to cater for such a broad range of tasks.

Cheers S

 

[spoz]

Marinising kit is not as easy as just painting it grey. And the SRSD mounts are in an exposed position on any ship. However, the Navy has used EOS products (although not obiously the R400) for some years.

 

[SammyC]

Thanks for the very detailed reply.

My take is the more our patrol fleet can take on at the lower end the more time the majors have for doing their principle role of warfighting.
Eg not constabulary work.

I don’t see the last fifty years looking like the next fifty in the constabulary role / cross over to a more robust policing role.

Not talking about high end near peer conflict but that grey area realm just above policing work.

I acknowledge we will have to work with what we have ie Capes and Arafura’s ,is it not prudent to add capacity.

The capability mentioned brought to the 5% scenario looks similar to a well equipped Arafura complete with main gun and helicopter or 200kg size UAV.

Not perfect but maybe good enough to not tie up a Frigate doing this role.
Same for the Capes.
Not school boy fantasies but a 50 plus meter vessel can carry more.

Suggest we need to not think and carry on like the past and adjust our expectations for the years ahead and how we meet the broad range of contingencies.

Nine majors next year will be thinly spread to cater for such a broad range of tasks.

Cheers S

I agree, this is an area that a properly set up Arafura could play a role. Managing problematic fishing boats is very much about mass of people, along with a support vessel that is strong and solid and can't be pushed around.

Arafuras have a larger crew at 40, and have capacity for double that number, so ideal for heavy boarding party enforcement. It's the police equivalent of a police booze bus.

It's a pity their helo capability is limited. Even having a lily pad capability to land a seahawk and refuel it would have been a significant benefit for this kind of tasking

I've had a thought (hold onto your hats). Rather than fit the Arafura with a nice 40mm cannon, I'm thinking an old fashoned harpoon could be an option. Got an anoying fishing boat. Skewer him with a harpoon shot, drag him out and park him on a rock.