Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Construction of the Hunter just seems to be slipping further down the track. I think they might have even initially promised construction would start in 2020 and then 2022. They did say construction would start this year but now the year is half over so who knows.

Marles did give an in service date of 2034 which suggests nobody is rushing to get these ships built.

Getting all 6 Hunters may be pretty optimistic. They were intended as ASW vessels but since they were selected we have seen the emergence of SSNs and a new class of GP frigate. Priorities might have shifted.
I think it will be in service before 2034.
10 year build time just follows the u.k foc build. What they learn with Glasgow will be passed on to BAE in Aus.
With a much more efficient yard, I think we will see Hunter a little earlier than expected.
Looks like they produce a unit every 2 months.


BAE systems Australia X

 
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Armchair

Well-Known Member
I think it will be in service before 2034.
10 year build time just follows the u.k foc build. What they learn with Glasgow will be passed on to BAE in Aus.
With a much more efficient yard, I think we will see Hunter a little earlier than expected.
Looks like they produce a unit every 2 months.


BAE systems Australia X

The vessel won’t be in service earlier unless there is a crew for it and there is funding for operating it. A change of government (or a different decision by this government) could deliver the second of those, but it can’t just provide a crew ready to operate an Aegis vessel (say) 2-3 years earlier than planned. Sailors for an early Hunter would need to come from GPF frigates (possible if the class is delayed or cancelled) or further ANZAC decommissioning but they can’t just be switched over without years of training for some roles.

I make this point because build time is only one factor in delivering capability. The RAN is the most hard pressed of the services in workforce terms and is rapidly expanding its submarine workforce and increasing the complexity of its submarine operations. The chief of navy (in the surface fleet announcement) claimed (if they met their targets) they could crew the ships in the plan (until the 2040s).
 

Tbone

Member
So with Huon being decommissioned what is left in regards to the MCM Role? And where are the new ships to replace them? Honestly this is becoming a joke.. all I see is Anzacs being retired.. collins breaking apart… Hobarts taken away for upgrades… evolved cape class with. No weapons.. Arafura with no missions assigned to them. The navy has absolutely no war fighting ability at all. Surely you will have to upgun the new Arafura class vessels to the teeth and at least pretend they are warfighting ships in our near region while we working on the GPF and hunters coming into service.., as we actually have nothing for 10 more years!! I’m actually scared if war broke out!
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
Hauritz is correct about the Hunter frigate construction timing. It has slipped four years, assuming it starts immediately. In fact, BAE is further behind schedule now on Hunter (4 yrs) than Naval Group was before the Attack Class contract was cancelled (2 yrs).

Back when first announced in 2018 Hunter construction was to start in 2020 with the first ship in service by the “late 2020s”, with 4000 Australian jobs.

Since then the construction start date has been “walked back” several times. On the current Departmental program webpage no start date is listed. There is reference to building prototype modules. Local employment is now 2500 jobs, and the in service date is the “early 2030s”.

On the website for the 2024 released “Enhanced Lethality Surface Fleet” review the factsheet for South Australia says Hunter construction will start in 2024, with “2000 jobs”.

So the BAE and Defence information about Hunter timing is vague and inconsistent. But if construction starts this year, that will be four years late. I don’t think the time to build the first unit has changed from 2018 to now, that I can tell from the various briefings.
 
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Armchair

Well-Known Member
So with Huon being decommissioned what is left in regards to the MCM Role? And where are the new ships to replace them? Honestly this is becoming a joke.. all I see is Anzacs being retired.. collins breaking apart… Hobarts taken away for upgrades… evolved cape class with. No weapons.. Arafura with no missions assigned to them. The navy has absolutely no war fighting ability at all. Surely you will have to upgun the new Arafura class vessels to the teeth and at least pretend they are warfighting ships in our near region while we working on the GPF and hunters coming into service.., as we actually have nothing for 10 more years!! I’m actually scared if war broke out!
The RAN’s most plausible adversary maintains an area denial strategy based around anti ship ballistic missiles. The Hobarts can potentially defend against those, and contribute to strike at long range - but only if upgraded.
Australia’s allies maintain a sea control strategy that would deny the seas outside the first island chain to PLAN surface vessels during a war. The RAN’s most likely threat therefore comes in the form of SSKs armed with torpedoes and anti ship cruise missiles.

Is there any way to arm an Arafura or a Cape so that they would be useful for fighting a war in which the targets and threats comprise shore based missile batteries and submarines? Can a Huon class independently hunt for mines in that threat environment?
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
So with Huon being decommissioned what is left in regards to the MCM Role? And where are the new ships to replace them? Honestly this is becoming a joke.. all I see is Anzacs being retired.. collins breaking apart… Hobarts taken away for upgrades… evolved cape class with. No weapons.. Arafura with no missions assigned to them. The navy has absolutely no war fighting ability at all. Surely you will have to upgun the new Arafura class vessels to the teeth and at least pretend they are warfighting ships in our near region while we working on the GPF and hunters coming into service.., as we actually have nothing for 10 more years!! I’m actually scared if war broke out!
Hi Tbone, I think the decision to reverse the minehunter replacement program is one of the early examples of technology outpacing the platform, rendering it obsolete. Containerised long range mine hunting UUVs can be loaded to any ship with a flat deck from any port, and be operated from outside the risk zone. Put it on a frigate in a contested area. Use a supply tender in safe regions. Launch it off the shore from a truck as part of a forward deployment with the army. It no longer needs a dedicated purpose built vessel. Build 100 of them for less than the cost of a single ship.

The Huons, for all their specialisation and ability to work within a mine field, are unfortunately a relic from an outdated time. Replacing them with something similar would be to perpetuate this same situation. I suspect this is at the heart of the government's decision and it avoids throwing good money away on something that is going to be ineffective.

Sad as that is, that's the reality. I think the speed of change here has caught everyone by suprise.

The lack of a replacement for the ANZACs and Colins is disappointing and, unlike the Huons, could have been avoided. But we are where we are. In this situation sometimes its better to withdraw, and then consolidate and rebuild. It's akin to saving your strength for the long haul and coming back into the fight later.

ANZAC and Arunta are too expensive to maintain and we can't crew them. Sacrificing them allows the remaining six frigates to be adequately supported. It's a brutal strategy but necessary, and I would view that six functional ships is better than eight threadbare ships. There is a replacement class coming and these six ships now just need to last a bit longer. They'll get a coat of paint to help with that. They will be retired very quickly once the GPFs come online from 2029 onwards and the Hunters from 2034. If there are any remaining after 2035/36 I would be suprised.

I would view the Hobart upgrade as a high value investment. One of the best we are making. This makes them as good a combat platform as any other frontline destroyer in the world when paired up with a gaggle of LOCSVs. It just takes time and costs a lot (somehow more than the original construction, inflation is a killer). I still wish we had more of them.

Colins is just an example of what happens when you run the clock out, have no remaining good options and are forced to spend huge amounts of money gaining more time. I think LOTE is in the order of $6B, which is the equivalent of 2/3 the GPF program or 1 Virginia. The Colins need to extend into the 2040s for everything to work and yes we will loose a lot of availability over the late 2020s as they go through this (I think the first one is 2026). The LOTE has a big scope, so they come out looking good. We just have to grit our teeth and get through it. Once upgraded they will be able to conduct the near shore requirements where they can be protected easier and their snorkelling limitation will be less of an exposure, while the SSNs do the long distance and contested waters stuff. So they will add value.

The Naval Ship Building Plan should be updated and released later this year. It should provide a lot of the timing, scheduling and strategic questions we are all seeking (at least some of them anyway).
 
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OldNavy63

Active Member
Senates Estimates continue in Parliament this week with DFAT Monday and Tuesday (including discussion on the RAN’s SSN Program). Defence kicks off on Wednesday and Thursday with topics such as Defence People, Acquisition Program, Navy Capabilities, Naval Shipbuilding - looking for clarification on when the contract will be signed with BAE Systems Australia for the Hunter class Frigates (like WTF!).

Estimates Live:

Estimates Live - ParlWork | Parliament of Australia

Schedule:

https://www.aph.gov.au/-/media/Esti...hash=6CC37EF9896A8CDB0FD886971266D3C4CDD57DEF

I will be interested to hear Defence’s responses to the Committee’s questions, compared to the standard word-salad mumbling from Richard Marles at the Defending Australia conference last week. The only notable “Impactful Projection” I observed was when his lectern teetered forward during his speech.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member

It appears the whole sea 1905 project has been cancelled.

So how are we to clear mines.. in or not in high threat areas??
Yea I did see that. Truth be known I don't know why there was also the decision to cancel the phase 1 of 1905 which was associated with the UUV drones. Not continuing with phase 2, which was the replacement of the Huon platform, I do understand as detailed as above. Yes, I'm flummoxed about phase 1.

I have not seen any move to discontinue minehunting as a Naval function, so (without any information), it would appear the government is taking a clean sheet approach to this requirement.

Perhaps there is more coming out of the autonomous UUV program than we know, that covers this requirement. Or maybe it will be built into the GPF scope (the Mogamis come fitted with a mine hunting drone for instance). I am guessing at this point. I can't imagine however that there would be no capability in this area. We just don't know what it is.
 

Armchair

Well-Known Member

It appears the whole sea 1905 project has been cancelled.

So how are we to clear mines.. in or not in high threat areas??
I hope someone in a senator’s office reads the article and poses the question at Estimates.

For the sake of discussion here I think the answer to “ So how are we to clear mines.. in or not in high threat areas??” is … The same way as they do now except instead of clearance divers and their equipment sailing in a specialised minehunting vessel they will fly to the site they need to clear (e.g. a friendly port) or they will be embarked on an escorted vessel in a task force (e.g., a LHD) from which the UUVs will operate, ahead of the task force, in the (suspected) minefield.

I think this reflects the change in the world that SammyC referred to. When a Huon was built it was plausible to send a vessel armed only with a 40mm gun in advance of a task force to perform detached tasks. When they started the Arafura program it was still kind of plausible to use that sort of minimally defended vessel for that purpose. Now that even some non-state actors have credible anti ship weapons (and even near-peer cruisers can fail to defend from anti ship cruise missiles) littoral zones can be dangerous places to operate undefended warships with their invaluable crews and equipment. Certainly there would be a dose of cost cutting in there too.
 

Tbone

Member
So to be clear.. after many years of testing and planning.. months before awarding a contract to supply the tools needed for modular MCM operations.. that could be used on any RAN vessel large enough to take standard shipping containers the Government has cancelled this???? My understanding that Phase 1 could be ransferee to the new GPF, Hunters and LHD’s.. why would you cancel this after years of refining the scope and asking industry for the solution? I can understand Phase 2 not going ahead by reasons given by the experts but it is mystifying that the tools needed to understand this important works has just been scrapped and again delays of restarting all over again.. let’s be clear there isn’t another solution it’s a cost cutting measure.
 

Tbone

Member
Could some of the Arafura class vessels at least take over the surveying roles.. large cranes and room for small surveying boats to be stored. Is there any other modifications needed on the Arafura s to have this tiles taken over by them?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would not be surprised if there have been technological developments or an FMS option, maybe a single source OS buy of a JV that will supercede the cancelled projects.

Remember the mantra is now minimum viable capability to ensure there is money to do the high end stuff we are committed to. That minimum viable capability may very well prove to be modilar deployable capabilities bought off the shelf.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
This is the only statement given for cancelling SEA 1905.

“The Albanese government today announced the cancellation of its third-generation mine warfare program SEA 1905, This stop follows the Defence programs review that redefined the equipment priorities of the Australian Defence Forces to take into account budget constraints”

I have no words. In terms of the overall defence budget this program is small potatoes.

In other news China identified MCM capability as being one of the USNs greatest weaknesses and has responded by greatly boosting their own sea mine stocks.

 
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SammyC

Well-Known Member
I can only hope there is an option behind the scenes (perhaps I take too much on faith). Defence is after all full of secrets (most of them remain so). Mine laying and clearance remain core Naval activities, I've seen nothing to say this is being disbanded. It would be interesting if it comes up in Senate Estimates.

I would have thought that if there was no future in the MCD community we would have heard it from disgruntled members by now. They all seem to be pretty quiet, suggesting there is something else.

I will note that it was the MCD branch that turned their noses up at the adoption of the Arafuras. The reason was not given, however they were adamant that the platform would be unsuitable.

Hydrographic survey is being contracted out and was listed as such in the recent National Defence Strategy. The Leeuwins will be the last of their type.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
I hope not. Those two are early gen versions that had a lot of problems. There is a reason the Americans want them gone.

I know the USN is trying to repurpose the LCS vessels as mine hunters, however its a very expensive way of doing it. Plus it doesn't answer the defendability question.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Do we end up with 2 Independence class LCS (USS Jackson and Montgomery) as minesweeping motherships?
I certainly hope not. IMO if Australia were to purchase any of the LCS, then the person or persons responsible should face charges. Had the LCS programme stuck much closer to what the original intent had been, namely small, fast and relatively cheap combat vessels, the programme would not have been such an overall failure. However, trying to make a vessel capable of doing all things whilst also able to self-deploy over long distances at high speeds resulted in design compromises which in turn led to the overall designs being compromised.

There is a reason why the US has already started decommissioning some of the LCS already in service, despite they having been intended to continue serving for many years more.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
They have 10-12 years of life left, a short-medium term solution before we go fully robotic. Cost unknown.
Most of the class are 1 module specific and no longer swap out equipment.
Containerised plug and play defense, 57mm + NSM + CIWS.
Not advocating for it but they are up for sale soon.

 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
They have 10-12 years of life left, a short-medium term solution before we go fully robotic. Cost unknown.
Most of the class are 1 module specific and no longer swap out equipment.
Containerised plug and play defense, 57mm + NSM + CIWS.
Not advocating for it but they are up for sale soon.

They might have a notional decade plus left of available service life, but the fact that the US Navy is retiring them this early should be an enormous red flag indicating that these vessels might not be worth purchasing. IIRC some of the gearing and machinery fitted aboard some of the earlier LCS were found to be problematic. It was determined that replacing some of this machinery was necessary to resolve the mechanical issues, but that the cost to fit the replacements was too high/difficult and that it was easier to just retire the vessels early and order new-build replacements which would be constructed using the new machinery to begin with.

So one has to ask whether it would be worthwhile (or wise) for Australia to purchase kit that the USN is retiring early because it is not worth keeping in USN service. Then add on the fact that if adopted, Australia and the RAN would then need to add yet more kit into service which would require maintenance and logistical support as well as new training streams for operators and maintainers.
 
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