Things aren't looking good for the Mine Warfare Branch, cheers. Navy to decommission HMAS Huon without direct replacement - Australian Defence Magazine
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
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China’s latest unsafe interception at sea was no accident | The Strategist
I thought this was an interesting take on the Hobart helo incident. Many of the same themes as discussed in this forum, however the author presents a few new view points.
I thought this was an interesting take on the Hobart helo incident. Many of the same themes as discussed in this forum, however the author presents a few new view points.
Agree visual evidence is better but need to be prepared for the eventual claims of fake and AI manufactured.
Collective response is best in the face of a bully.
There probably isn’t any video of the incident - RAN helos don’t regularly carry equipment to enable videoing of the environment. That would be an unnecessary consumer of space, and would add unnecessary weight and there has been no real need in the past. The best thing available is likely to be CVR audio and possibly radar or video from the ship, if she was near enough to the scene.
The Romeo aircrewman usually will have a camera to take footage and the helo's should be able to video via their front sensors.
Everyone has a smart phone and a lot of cars have a dash cams.
These may not be the answer, but basic tech is small, light weight plus very cheap.
Sometimes a agricultural solution to a basic problem is the answer.
Cheers S
PS - now awaiting comedic response for ADF aircraft having dashcams.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
There are a host of potential safety and security issues with having an active/transmitting smartphone on a deployment, and on aboard an aircraft in particular. There are a number of reasons why certain types of secured facilities have lockboxes that personnel have to leave their phones in, prior to entering.Everyone has a smart phone and a lot of cars have a dash cams.
These may not be the answer, but basic tech is small, light weight plus very cheap.
Sometimes a agricultural solution to a basic problem is the answer.
Cheers S
PS - now awaiting comedic response for ADF aircraft having dashcams.
If needed something should certainly be able to be either adapted or developed, but TBH I rather doubt it would matter, as I suspect the PRC would not care regardless of what was shown by Australia.
As I said the ACM have at least one camera, I seem to remember them having two on their SCA, both being service issued to them.
I think this wholly depends on how you look at mine warfare as a capability domain.
As the traditional form goes, which would be a class of mine hunting vessels, the branch hasn't been looking good for several years now with a third of the Huon-class being already put up for sale six years ago.
In the more forward looking sense the MCM capability of the RAN is in fact moving towards expansion. With the acquisition of ADV Guidance last year and the several UUV and USV programs underway, which she will be used to trial, these efforts represent the future of MCM as a capability within the RAN and reflect the global trend towards more and more usage of unmanned vessels operating from motherships to perform MCM on a much greater scale than what the Huons and their two relatively short ranged ROVs currently provide.
Seems to be more ships decommissioning than commissioning these days. We lose another ANZAC next year, probably the remaining 4 Armidales and I guess we could see the rest of the MCM and perhaps the Hydro fleet withdrawn over the next few years. Technically the Capes are non-commissioned vessels but we will see 6 Arafuras join the fleet. By my estimation we could see the fleet size reduce to less than 25 commissioned vessels by 2030 and a lot of those will be getting pretty long in the tooth. Of the remaining ships we can expect several will be undergoing major re-fits.
As you say, not all is doom and gloom as a number of UUV and USV programs seem to be progressing without too many issues. The ADF seem to be putting a lot of faith in unmanned systems. Let's hope that faith is justified.
Let’s see how Chalmers doles out his pennies next Tuesday night. If there’s anything left in the Petty Cash tin, we could get the 64GB microSD memory card this financial year then go for the 2-channel front and rear dash cam in Aldi’s Special Buys after 1st July.Everyone has a smart phone and a lot of cars have a dash cams.
These may not be the answer, but basic tech is small, light weight plus very cheap.
Sometimes a agricultural solution to a basic problem is the answer.
Cheers S
PS - now awaiting comedic response for ADF aircraft having dashcams.
It will be interesting to watch this space develop, it seems to be moving rapidly. The Brits have a similar platform to Adv Guidance with RFA Stirling Castle to trial new technologies.
The venerable Huons need to operate close to and within a mine field (the current double eagles I understand have a tethered range of about 500m and very localised sensors), however with drones now having substantial autonomous ranges this is no longer necessary.
Ghost Shark, for instance, has a quoted capability of 10 days underwater, a speed of 4kts and an operating depth of 6km. So you could assume a pack of drones like this could patrol a 1000 km2 area from a mothership with relative ease every few days. Half a dozen platforms of this type could provide a near continuous monitoring of all the waters around Australia. That is an order of magnitude increase on what the full fleet of Huons could ever do.
I could see that in contested waters (say clearing a pathway through someone elses EEZ), the mothership could be a Hunter frigate, making use of the multi mission bay, but in less threatened areas (say confirming that a commercial sea lane remains safe for transit), then something like Guidance could be used at much lower cost and greater capacity. It wouldn't suprise me if a future LOCSV could be configured for drone mothership duties as well.
The technology to detect mines at scale and range is I suspect still challenging. Some of the current generation mines are very effective at sitting on the sea bed, hidden for long periods of time. I can't imagine these are easy to spot. Thales however have some interesting experimental drones that use AI with sonar and visual cameras to detect sea bed mines and they seem to be capable. And there are several other equivalent products in development.
I was watching a video where a drone system was used to survey a region where some dummy mines had been positioned in the North Sea, and the drones located them. I could imagine Ghost Shark fitted with a something like this in its modular compartment.
It always suprised me why the Arafuras were considered not suitable as mine hunting platforms. They have a good sized deck and a large crane, not dissimilar to Guidance. I would have thought they could comfortably have launched and recovered even large drones like Ghost Shark.
I'm thinking that maybe the strategy is large numbers of drones (say 10 or 20, rather than 2 or 3 from a mothership) and it is simply a capacity issue. Guidance could hold a lot more drones than Arafura.
My last thought is that the mine countermeasures profession is perhaps a dying art. In the future it becomes more of a UUV expert. Or perhaps they become more focused on designing mines that can defeat drones (counter counter mines).
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Drone support vessels need not be expensive or particularly sophisticated. In fact pretty much any ship with a crane and a bit of free deck space could be utilised. To be honest I find myself wondering whether the navy of the future may just be swarms of UUVs and USVs supported by a handful of manned vessels.
Right now it feels like priority is being given to developing unmanned systems while projects such as new submarines and frigates seem to be almost deliberately slowed down. Time will tell.
Defence confirms undersea support vessel - Australian Defence Magazine
Over the weekend Defence confirmed the acquisition of ADV Guidance, formerly MV Normand Jarl, to serve as a dedicated Undersea Support Vessel for the Royal Australian Navy.
www.australiandefence.com.au
I agree. While Guidance is currently described as a test and trials platform, it is not much of a stretch to see it (and perhaps some sister ships) become an ongoing capability.
I'm not suprised at the investment in AI drones. The technology is rapidly maturing and it provides a cheap mass produced asymetic counter to China's extensive ship building capability. I would view that we may well have a large and mature deployable autonomous drone fleet (UUV, USV and UAV) before we get our new staffed ships. It is one of the reasons I have less concern for the submarine, Hunter and GP frigate acquisition schedules.
I should note that the mine countermeasures replacement program is captured in SEA 1905. Phase 1 is currently in progress and is seeking an off the shelf containerised ROV style system. Saab and Exail are the two shortlisted providers. Both offerings are platform agnostic and should provide short term coverage as the Huons are decommissioned.
Interestingly both Saab's and Exail's offerings combine USV and UUV as hybrid packages. The USV functions as a mini mothership and comms link, with smaller UUVs then conducting the hunting mission. The USV is in turn remotely operated from a staffed vessel. So the systems look to be more remotely operated rather than autonomous.
Neither option is the full on futuristic AI independent system, however they should be a significant step up from the double eagles, and bridge the capability.
I'm not suprised at the investment in AI drones. The technology is rapidly maturing and it provides a cheap mass produced asymetic counter to China's extensive ship building capability. I would view that we may well have a large and mature deployable autonomous drone fleet (UUV, USV and UAV) before we get our new staffed ships. It is one of the reasons I have less concern for the submarine, Hunter and GP frigate acquisition schedules.
I should note that the mine countermeasures replacement program is captured in SEA 1905. Phase 1 is currently in progress and is seeking an off the shelf containerised ROV style system. Saab and Exail are the two shortlisted providers. Both offerings are platform agnostic and should provide short term coverage as the Huons are decommissioned.
Interestingly both Saab's and Exail's offerings combine USV and UUV as hybrid packages. The USV functions as a mini mothership and comms link, with smaller UUVs then conducting the hunting mission. The USV is in turn remotely operated from a staffed vessel. So the systems look to be more remotely operated rather than autonomous.
Neither option is the full on futuristic AI independent system, however they should be a significant step up from the double eagles, and bridge the capability.
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My guess is that it is to do with the range of threats. An OPV could deploy a mine hunting system but it can’t deploy a sub hunting helicopter and it can’t defend itself from cruise missiles. The range of scenarios where an OPV (or a Huon) could be sent independently to hunt mines is likely to become very limited in the future. A vessel like Guardian, if retained as an ongoing capability, might be envisaged to operate as part of a task force.
Article from the Japan Times discussing FFM for Australia.
I like the FFM but I wonder about the small crew size. There is an obvious appeal to having such a small crew, particularly for a country like Australia, but I am wondering what sort of workload will be required of that crew.
As the article points out a decision will need to be made soon and we are hearing very little in the press about the selection process. The DSR assured us that this process would be simplified and accelerated so maybe the whole process will be held behind closed doors.
Wouldn’t surprise me given that many recent decisions seem to have been made without a lengthy selection process. The Apache, Seahawk and Blackhawk helicopters for example.
The thing is these were all low risk selections. Proven designs and proven production lines. Something like the FFM on the other hand may be seen as risky.
As the article points out a decision will need to be made soon and we are hearing very little in the press about the selection process. The DSR assured us that this process would be simplified and accelerated so maybe the whole process will be held behind closed doors.
Wouldn’t surprise me given that many recent decisions seem to have been made without a lengthy selection process. The Apache, Seahawk and Blackhawk helicopters for example.
The thing is these were all low risk selections. Proven designs and proven production lines. Something like the FFM on the other hand may be seen as risky.
iambuzzard
Well-Known Member
The thing is, the Mogami/FFM is in production and a proven and active design. The hiccups could be the language barrier and commonality of weapons systems.
What is the Mogami fitted with and can we easily fit our chosen systems?
And I would suggest if we choose the design it would be the batch II with 32 VLS. Most of the other candidates are based on older designs with no room for growth. Plus the Batch II has improved ASW capabilities.
As a layman I apologise for my lack of technical knowledge.
My only naval experience has been guided tours of USS Mobile Bay (post 911) and HMAS Brisbane. A former gun captain was my guide and another mate was a cook on board with the Red Crew. At least I got to sit in the CO's modified seat on the bridge. From a Holden Commodore I believe. Lol.
The FFM is a complete redesign of the Mogami. It’s a much bigger and improved ship in every area. It’s longer, wider, taller, heavier, more range, more cells, reorientation of the mast, improved internals etc etc. Mitsubishi start building them next year for 2027/2028 foc delivery. 5 or more will be in service prior to an Australian build. The first 3 built overseas for 2029-2034 delivery is the issue trying to integrate Aus requirements before 2026 steel cutting.(Maybe that could be pushed back though.)
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