Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Reptilia]

From the Financial Review

Richard Marles on the hunt for $25b to spend on defence

The minister needs to win over sceptical cabinet colleagues in his attempt to secure money for new warships and weapons, as defence contractors vent their ire.

www.afr.com

Marles looking for an extra 25 billion for warships, weapons and base upgrades.

@Reptillia

so .... what is your point? This is a one liner and you should know the rules. At least provide some discussion.

You have been warned on many occassions about fantasy fleets and the nature of your posting. Lets not go back there.

Alexsa

 

[iambuzzard]

From the Financial Review

Richard Marles on the hunt for $25b to spend on defence

The minister needs to win over sceptical cabinet colleagues in his attempt to secure money for new warships and weapons, as defence contractors vent their ire.

www.afr.com

Marles looking for an extra 25 billion for warships, weapons and base upgrades.

I doubt he'll get it

 

[Reptilia]

I doubt he'll get it

Not sure why the article was boosted on afr but it’s from late last year.
Still though, defense trying to find money here, there and everywhere to pay for subs, ships, missiles and base upgrades.

 

[Morgo]

I doubt he'll get it

Why? He’s the Deputy PM, and as a result the most powerful Defence Minister in decades.

 

[ADMk2]

Why? He’s the Deputy PM, and as a result the most powerful Defence Minister in decades.

Because of widespread reporting he has consistently failed to win funding requests he has made, hence the squeeze on existing defence resourcing.

He may be the most senior cabinet minister defence has had in decades, but it is within a government that to ‘put things mildly’ is not especially invested in defence…

 

[Morgo]

Because of widespread reporting he has consistently failed to win funding requests he has made, hence the squeeze on existing defence resourcing.

He may be the most senior cabinet minister defence has had in decades, but it is within a government that to ‘put things mildly’ is not especially invested in defence…

Could you provide some evidence that he hasn’t got what he wanted at the Cabinet table? I may well have missed it but I haven’t seen any reporting saying that this is the the case.

As far as I’m aware everything we’ve seen is exactly by his design, for good or bad.

 

[John Fedup]

Why? He’s the Deputy PM, and as a result the most powerful Defence Minister in decades.

Not familiar about Australian deputy PMs but Canada’s Deputy PM isn’t a powerhouse finance minister judging by Canada’s financial performance of late. A deputy PM means Jack, it the is PM who counts…just ask junior, he will confirm. However your in power pollies as well as the UK’s can ditch a party leader who is a sitting PM, something that unfortunately cannot happen in Canada.

 

[Reptilia]

Controversial warship program survives as government prepares to unveil Australia's 'Future Navy'

Australia's troubled Hunter-class frigate program has avoided being axed following a sweeping review of the navy's combat surface fleet, with at least six and possibly several more of the large and expensive warships to be built over coming decades.

www.abc.net.au

Hunter warship program survives, from the ABC.

Also
‘While Defence works to resolve problems on the Perth-based OPV program, the Independent Analysis Team conducting the review of the navy's Surface Combatant Fleet has examined several international designs for building corvettes in Australia or overseas.

Industry sources say options being assessed include warships from Spain, Germany, Korea and Japan, but Defence says it has not issued its own specific "Request For Information".

@Reptilia

Again this is simply introducing material an article ....... your quotes are taken directly from the article and add nothing to the discussion.

Alexsa

 

[Aardvark144]

Could you provide some evidence that he hasn’t got what he wanted at the Cabinet table? I may well have missed it but I haven’t seen any reporting saying that this is the the case.

As far as I’m aware everything we’ve seen is exactly by his design, for good or bad.

It has been widely reported in multiple media outlets over the last six months (even over the weekend although behind a paywall) that MINDEF, whilst Dep PM, has been rolled on numerous occasions by Treasurer and Foreign Minister when seeking additional funding for Defence.

 

[Morgo]

Not familiar about Australian deputy PMs but Canada’s Deputy PM isn’t a powerhouse finance minister judging by Canada’s financial performance of late. A deputy PM means Jack, it the is PM who counts…just ask junior, he will confirm. However your in power pollies as well as the UK’s can ditch a party leader who is a sitting PM, something that unfortunately cannot happen in Canada.

Typically the Deputy PM in a Labor government is the second most senior/powerful MP on their side and is usually also the leader of one of the ALP’s most powerful factions. This is usually but not always the NSW or VIC Right or Left.

This is the case with Marles - he is from the Victorian Right vs the PM who is from the NSW Left. The Right faction (who as you can tell from the name) are generally more socially and economically centrist (and more willing to spend on Defence) currently hold a majority of the ALPs seats in Parliament, and therefore have the power. This is one of the main reasons that the current Government has been quite well run for the most part despite some public nonsense from the Left (see the failed Referendum last year).

Jim Chalmers, the Treasurer, is the most senior member of NSW Right and probably the only person who Marles would be arguing with for funding, not other Cabinet ministers.

 

[Morgo]

It has been widely reported in multiple media outlets over the last six months (even over the weekend although behind a paywall) that MINDEF, whilst Dep PM, has been rolled on numerous occasions by Treasurer and Foreign Minister when seeking additional funding for Defence.

Thanks - could you provide links? I have searched myself and haven’t been able to find anything. This is clearly quite an important dynamic.

 

[Volkodav]

Devil's advocate here.

Would a little more robust discussion and pushback in the Howard years for instance, when defence was much better funded, have resulted in better thought out acquisitions?

We are still feeling the effects, some good, some bad, from the many decisions that, in hindsite, were captains calls back in the day. Where would we be if the same rigour we are seenung today, existed then?

Allow me to rephrase, instead of much better funded, perhaps, less closely examined. Definitely, in the middle of the mining construction boom, money was not as tight, even though, IMPO defence was actually under invested.

 

[Redlands18]

Controversial warship program survives as government prepares to unveil Australia's 'Future Navy'

Australia's troubled Hunter-class frigate program has avoided being axed following a sweeping review of the navy's combat surface fleet, with at least six and possibly several more of the large and expensive warships to be built over coming decades.

www.abc.net.au

Hunter warship program survives, from the ABC.

Also
‘While Defence works to resolve problems on the Perth-based OPV program, the Independent Analysis Team conducting the review of the navy's Surface Combatant Fleet has examined several international designs for building corvettes in Australia or overseas.

Industry sources say options being assessed include warships from Spain, Germany, Korea and Japan, but Defence says it has not issued its own specific "Request For Information".

Don't know what "Corvette" design they would be looking at from ROK or Japan, the smallest warships they are currently building are the Chungnam and Mogami classes, which at 129m and 133m, are appreciably larger than the Anzacs at 118m. Spain and Germany could both offer Corvettes in the 90m-110m range.

 

[Armchair]

Thanks - could you provide links? I have searched myself and haven’t been able to find anything. This is clearly quite an important dynamic.

Perhaps, but we know that much of the current reporting of leaks of the Surface Fleet Analysis is false. If there are two mutually incompatible leaks then at least one of them must be false.

Similarly, If there are reports of Marles being rolled then it is possible Marles is being rolled or the stories may have been concocted by domestic or international interests who wish to see him portrayed in that way (those interests range from bored journalists and factional enemies in the ALP through to foreign governments).

 

[MARKMILES77]

Devil's advocate here.

Would a little more robust discussion and pushback in the Howard years for instance, when defence was much better funded, have resulted in better thought out acquisitions?

We are still feeling the effects, some good, some bad, from the many decisions that, in hindsite, were captains calls back in the day. Where would we be if the same rigour we are seenung today, existed then?

Allow me to rephrase, instead of much better funded, perhaps, less closely examined. Definitely, in the middle of the mining construction boom, money was not as tight, even though, IMPO defence was actually under invested.

Are we seeing "Rigour"?
Or is rigour an excuse for delaying making decisions and placing orders?
There seems to be a requirement for "Rigour" when it comes to spending money.
But little need for rigour when cancelling spending.
Every decision you can delay means spending you can defer!

I think this is the issue:

While defence funding overall is increasing, the government has made clear there will be no extra money beyond the $270 billion committed over 10 years for acquisitions, forcing cuts to some projects.

Army vehicles gutted for missiles amid $42b budget hole

Plans to build new armoured vehicles in Australia for the army will be slashed to pay for new missiles and stronger cybersecurity, after a major military review uncovered a $42 billion budget hole.

www.afr.com

So expensive programmes like the SSN might give us a top shelf submarine force but will lead to the gutting of many other capabilities.
The question is whether it is worth it?
The Navy might say yes but Army???

 

[Reptilia]

Don't know what "Corvette" design they would be looking at from ROK or Japan, the smallest warships they are currently building are the Chungnam and Mogami classes, which at 129m and 133m, are appreciably larger than the Anzacs at 118m. Spain and Germany could both offer Corvettes in the 90m-110m range.

Maybe it’s the corvette the Koreans are building for the Phillipines known as the HDC-3100, it is 114-118m.
Who knows with the Japanese, not corvettes but could be the Mogami or the new ffm or the smaller variant of Mogami shown years ago. 90 crew for both the Mogami and new ffm is a big plus, not sure of crewing requirements for the Phillipines corvette but the Chungnam frigate is said to have approx 120.

 

[Aardvark144]

Thanks - could you provide links? I have searched myself and haven’t been able to find anything. This is clearly quite an important dynamic.

Will try tonight although most I have read have been via the Defence Daily News Summary.

 

[ADMk2]

Could you provide some evidence that he hasn’t got what he wanted at the Cabinet table? I may well have missed it but I haven’t seen any reporting saying that this is the the case.

As far as I’m aware everything we’ve seen is exactly by his design, for good or bad.

‘It’s a fail’: Richard Marles under fire over performance as defence minister

Jockeying has begun to be the next Chief of the Defence Force as tensions between the defence minister and senior defence officials burst into public view.

www.smh.com.au

The defence minister’s war with his department

Increasing tensions between Richard Marles and Defence are fuelled by bickering about new weapons and the government’s inability to deliver a funding boost.

www.afr.com

Those two cover the main points, but there has been lots of reporting on these views.

 

[Aardvark144]

‘It’s a fail’: Richard Marles under fire over performance as defence minister

Jockeying has begun to be the next Chief of the Defence Force as tensions between the defence minister and senior defence officials burst into public view.

www.smh.com.au

The defence minister’s war with his department

Increasing tensions between Richard Marles and Defence are fuelled by bickering about new weapons and the government’s inability to deliver a funding boost.

www.afr.com

Those two cover the main points, but there has been lots of reporting on these views.

ADMk2 - Love your work. Done the job for me. Cheers!

 

[Morgo]

‘It’s a fail’: Richard Marles under fire over performance as defence minister

Jockeying has begun to be the next Chief of the Defence Force as tensions between the defence minister and senior defence officials burst into public view.

www.smh.com.au

The defence minister’s war with his department

Increasing tensions between Richard Marles and Defence are fuelled by bickering about new weapons and the government’s inability to deliver a funding boost.

www.afr.com

Those two cover the main points, but there has been lots of reporting on these views.

Thanks to both of you.

Both articles speak to tensions between Defence and Marles, but don’t mention tension between Marles and the rest of Cabinet, which was the subject of the conversation above.

Have you seen anything on that?