Would you agree that it is in Australia and New Zealand's interests to maintain presence in the Southern Ocean which is commensurate to their respective claims? It's an area which I could see a joint approach working quite well.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
- Thread starter OPSSG
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To be fair both the Ocean Shield and Ocean Protector are ICE class (noting they are not ice breakers). Border force have maintained fisheries patrols in the southern ocean so there is some experience.
Australia also has a very competent ice breaker which provides the experience and skill sets for operations in ice. Whether or not the RAN gets a dedicated ice patrol vessel is a different thing. I will be interesting to see what the RFT for the Ocean Protector aims at.
Well NZ does retain a naval presence in the area which is within the prescribed Treaty limits. They use the Protector / Otago Class OPV for that with it's 25mm gun armament The US doesn't with the only US vessels in the area being the USCG icebreakers that go down this time of the year to cut the channel to McMurdo for the once a year resupply ship. The USAF operate the ski equipped LC-130H the fly between Phoenix and the Pole and the C-17s that do the NZCH - Phoenix runs. Occasionally the RNZAF operated a P-3K Orion out of the old Pegasus Field McMurdo looking for UUFV in the Ross Sea and elsewhere. The RNZAF also operates B757-200 Combi and C130H(NZ) flights on the NZCH - Phoenix runs.
I don't know if a joint approach will work that well because I sense that NZ and Australia have different priorities about the Ice and Southern Ocean. For the last 10 years NZ has seen it as a growing priority both in the geostrategic context and the environmental context, whereas Australia has basically ignored it in a geostrategic context and possibly the environmental context as well. Unfortunately for Australia you cannot ignore both contexts WRT Antarctica because both will have an impact upon Australia whether it likes it or not.
If I was high up in the RAN food chain I would be seriously considering drafting some young officers to those ships for experience in the conditions. Maybe some Leading Hands and Petty Officers from the seamans, greenies, and stokers branches as well. I think that it would be good knowledge to have and build on. But then I was never a denizen of the wardroom because I worked for a living
Just for context the RAN has had some experience operating in the Southern Ocean, albeit not to the same extent as the RNZN has, but we've sent both Anzacs and FFGs down into those waters chasing Patagonian toothfish poachers etc. But I agree that in recent years it's an area that has been largely ignored by our government. A brief summary of RAN Ops in the Southern Ocean
LHD might need an escort large enough for a tow every time it sails
I recall the RAN has a posting rotation for a Marine Technician on Macquarie Island every year to develop experience and training in maintaining systems down there.
ADF can supplement and support Antarctic expedition but it's not common. Ex-ADF do get jobs down there with seasonal groundcrew, maintainers and Medical staff but its application based and their knowledge makes them competitive.
Theres no need for dedicated ships similar to what Canada is running with Harry Dewolf class
Besides not complying with Antartic treaty it would just be wasted for Navy thats more concerned with the tropics.
No one wants weapons in the south and no one is rushing to do it
A point of interest.
Defence provided some images of the two ships passing through our northern waters.
Defence Imagery: Defence
images.defence.gov.au
One of the PLAN Ships, Hefei, a Type 052 D destroyer and the other ship Singgang Shan, a Type 071 Amphibious Transport Dock .
These two were sailing together when the alleged laser incident occurred last Thursday.
Of interest was that these two ships were joined by another two PLAN ships just south of Temor-Leste for a short period of time.
One a type 903 replenishment ship and the other a Type 54 Frigate.
Of note, these later two ships were detected by HMAS Arunta in Indonesian waters some six days earlier.
Would be interested as to what paths theses respective ships take.
All are modern vessels and when sailing together represent a very tidy and balanced "flotilla".
Aviation and Jindalee will always play a big part in knowing whats happening in our northern maritime sphere of interest.
That said, maritime surface assets will also have a role.
Fleets numbers will be important, as will capability.
Challenges ahead.
Regards S
Scott Elaurant
Well-Known Member
Stampede
Thanks, you make some good points. Noting these ships are transiting through to the Coral Sea, does this mean Australia needs to look at upgrading FBE, or adding a new east coast sub base, to support SSNs?
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
An East Coast Sub Base makes a lot of sense especially with SSNs for a number of reasons.
1/ It makes a Eastern approach into East Asian Waters a lot more feasible, you do not have the Strategic Choke Points East of PNG that you do through Indonesian Waters, with the greater speed and endurance of an SSN, it could be in the SCS sailing from Sydney or Brisbane as fast if not faster then a SSK sailing from Stirling and much more chance of doing so unnoticed.
2/ It will help with recruitment and retention, at present RAN Submariners are basically stuck in Perth for the duration.
3/ It will open up opportunities for Civilian Companies to be involved in Maintenance and support.
4/ It will provide more opportunities for ASW Trg for East Coast ADF Units.
IMHO I think a vessel like MPV Everest could be a reasonable replacement for Ocean Protector. While potentially being suitable for patrol work down South, it gives a redundancy to the AAD while also bringing a deep diving/salvage capability that the RAN is lacking. I guess it also could be used for HADR aswell. Cheers. MPV Everest | Ice Class Multipurpose Construction Vessel (mcs.nl)
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Rock the kasbah
Active Member
The RAN had something very similar but palmed it off to the ABF.
Don't know the reasoning
en.wikipedia.org
I know it's wiki but it had pictures
Don't know the reasoning
ABFC Ocean Shield - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
It was in turn replaced by the Ocean Protector, still run by the RAN but up for replacement towards the end of the decade.The RAN had something very similar but palmed it off to the ABF.
Don't know the reasoning
I know it's wiki but it had picturesABFC Ocean Shield - Wikipedia
John Newman
The Bunker Group
You don’t know the reason? It’s all there in the wiki article.The RAN had something very similar but palmed it off to the ABF.
Don't know the reasoning
I know it's wiki but it had picturesABFC Ocean Shield - Wikipedia
Regardless, it’s a pretty well known story why the RAN had Ocean Shield in service for a few years.
The two Kanimbla class LPA were forced into early retirement, the two Canberra class LHDs were still under construction, leaving the RAN with just Tobruk (or commonly known as tobroken).
The Government of the day procured two interim capabilities to cover the two retired LPA.
One was ex RFA Largs Bay, which became HMAS Choules, the other was Ocean Shield.
Once the LHDs commissioned Ocean Shield transferred to Border Force to replace the ‘leased’ Ocean Protector.
And in an odd twist of fait, Ocean Protector was obtained by the Navy.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I seem to recall there having been a bit more to the story when it was first announced. I have gone trolling back through the RAN thread Mk.I to refresh my memory. The basic gist was to provide a bit of (frankly far less than ideal) additional sealift and HADR capability to provide some gap coverage following the decommissioning of Bill & Ben, while Tobruk and Choules were both having availability issues and the LCH's were going to start decommissioning before the LHD's entered service.
IIRC it was also viewed at the time as a bit of a wasted expenditure of RAN funding, because something like AUD$60 mil. of the costs associated was for some very nice capabilities (like ROV hangars and a heave-compensated crane) would not see use when in a patrol role. It was also seen as being a way to use ADF money for Customs & Border Protection, which was also in the Defence Minister's portfolio and IIRC he was not too keen on Defence.
I seem to remember there being some talk about a certain Defence Minister's wife who was either involved with the company that supplied it or did the recommendation to Defence about vessel suitability.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
IIRC the wife was a lawyer with the law firm which did the legal work for the sale on behalf of the seller. No information on whether or not she was directly involved with the sale or not, but IIRC dept lawyers did raise concerns about the possibility of there being a conflict of interest. AFAIK such concerns or even possibly the information about such concerns never reached mainstream news.
I noticed something curious the other day in regards to the Anzac Class from an ANAO report on their sustainment.
Over the fleet's life there has been a "20 per cent increase in crew size from 157 to 192".
I'd assume that figure includes embarked flight crew of ~16?
Over the fleet's life there has been a "20 per cent increase in crew size from 157 to 192".
I'd assume that figure includes embarked flight crew of ~16?
We have had crew increases in pretty much all naval platforms.
Min crew numbers seem to be highly favorable conditions only. Not for regular, long deployments. Not sure the flight crew is always exactly + 16. But I believe those numbers are total embarked. They are probably caped because they can't fit anymore people onto the platform.
Those poor anzacs, we have pushed back the end of life from 2033 to at least 2043.
We spend so much money supporting ships capable of so very little.
Min crew numbers seem to be highly favorable conditions only. Not for regular, long deployments. Not sure the flight crew is always exactly + 16. But I believe those numbers are total embarked. They are probably caped because they can't fit anymore people onto the platform.
Those poor anzacs, we have pushed back the end of life from 2033 to at least 2043.
We spend so much money supporting ships capable of so very little.
To be fair though, outside of the 6x Singaporean Formidable Class, one would have to travel to China, South Korea or Japan before you'd find a frigate that would match an Anzac in post-AMCAP upgrade in the region. Cheers.
More likely something to do with the original ship's company complement number was woefully under estimated. Friends of mine who did trips in the early days of FFH service told me stories that a whole ship evolution was literally that, they had to get every warm body out of their racks to help with RAS handling etc. Over the years things have changed as recruitment for under manned categories got better, roles were changed and developed for various departments.