Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[alexsa]

You forgot the last bit
Water is wet, the sky is blue and power gives way to sail.

Power gives way to sail .....sometimes. I had the skipper of a Yacht yelling "power gives way to sail" at me while I was on the bridge of a Submarine entering Sydney ... his 30foot yacht was bouncing down the saddle tanks at the time.

The numb skull missed the Sydney port rules and rule 9 in respect of narrow channels and rule 18 in respect of vessels constrained by their draft. I understand the water police were less than sympathetic.

 

[DDG38]

Just because Command staff aren't putting out press statements that their warship is dead in the water (I'd be surprised if they did) doesn't mean it's not true. Defence statements do not contradict in any way the possibility that the ship cannot steam under it's own power. On the balance of probabilities, isn't it likely that, exactly as reported, "the ship isn't fixed" and "it cannot move" with no confirmation or denial from command staff or Defence officials?

Yes because operational Command staff would love for Defence officials to publicly confirm that a major fleet unit is currently disabled 3500km from it's home port. The ADF is under no obligation to provide up to the minute operational details to the press for very obvious reasons.

 

[spoz]

Power generation in an LHD is dispersed. It is entirely possible for some of it to fail without affecting the rest. Even if a major part of the generation capacity fails their are back up systems and the like. I think people are assuming a little too much on the basis of unattributed reports from people who may, or may not, know the full story. Unattributed source aren't necessarily reliable or unreliable but the quality of their information is always suspect because of the lack of attribution.

 

[Observer27]

Yes because operational Command staff would love for Defence officials to publicly confirm that a major fleet unit is currently disabled 3500km from it's home port. The ADF is under no obligation to provide up to the minute operational details to the press for very obvious reasons.

No disagreement here - as I said "I would be surprised if they did". This supports my point that lack of Command staff confirmation is does not invalidate the reporting.

Power generation in an LHD is dispersed. It is entirely possible for some of it to fail without affecting the rest. Even if a major part of the generation capacity fails their are back up systems and the like. I think people are assuming a little too much on the basis of unattributed reports from people who may, or may not, know the full story. Unattributed source aren't necessarily reliable or unreliable but the quality of their information is always suspect because of the lack of attribution.

Again, no argument here - as I said "anonymity is cause to take the reporting with a level of skepticism".

But based on the limited information we do have available (and from what is left unstated by Defence) it does at least seem likely (with some skeptical reservations) that the ship is currently disabled 3500km from it's home port. Not a happy state of affairs. I do hope that whatever the problem is, it can be rectified swiftly. In the worst case (very speculatively), how difficult would it be to tow a LHD back to port for repairs? Does Australia have a dry dock that can take a LHD?

@Observer27

Just a polite suggestion that you try to do a bit of research before asking questions. Even the simplest Google search could have answered the last question pretty easily.

alexsa

 

[old faithful]

No air con? We’ve all become a bit soft these days.

I remember being a kid in the back seat of Dads old 1960 FB Holden on stinking hot days, sitting on burning hot vinyl seats (no seat belts of course too), sweating away.

And Dad telling is it was time for the “4 x 40 air con” approach, that was “4 windows down and go at 40 Mph!”

There is 40 deg.....like Perth 40 deg, and there is 40 deg, like Darwin or Tonga 40 deg.
40 dry degrees is hot but bearable. 40 humid degrees is a totally different beast. You sweat to cool down, but it does not evaporate, and does not cool you down, so your body sweats more and more trying to regulate your body temp, until there is no more sweat to give....

 

[aussienscale]

I sense from the tone of your post that you are frustrated with the ABC in general.

This sounds like a newsworthy incident that should be reported on by journalists - certainly non-ABC news outlets have covered this too (news.com.au, smh.com.au, skynews.com.au). Do you think this should not have been reported on?

As far as I can see, nothing in the ABC article is contradicted by the Department of Defence statement unlike reporting from some of the other media outlets (looking at you SMH). The Defence statement has unsurprisingly downplayed the incident as nothing-to-see here. Perhaps the ABC (like every news organisation on the planet) has sensationalized it to a degree, but the facts as reported in the ABC article seem solid and mostly sourced from the commander of the vessel. Am I missing something? What specifically do you regard as "rubbish reporting"?

When I saw this news article, I immediately came to defencetalk forums to hopefully read some insightful defense professional takes on the incident. (What might have gone wrong? How serious could the issue be given it has taken days to get the ship operational again? etc.) Sadly, the immediate response from a "verified defense pro" appears to just be unwarranted ABC bashing. I'm a bit disappointed.

So... that said. What might have gone wrong? How serious could the issue be given it has taken days to get the ship operational again? If external communications are affected, could a power spike have cause secondary damage to comms equipment?

I have a healthy level of disrespect towards all main stream media when it comes to Defence reporting and Defence matters, the ABC has a special place in my heart

Cheers

 

[DDG38]

Does Australia have a dry dock that can take a LHD?

Please acquaint yourself with Fleet Base East.

 

[Observer27]

Please acquaint yourself with Fleet Base East.

Thanks, I've often walked past it. Wasn't sure if the dry dock there was big enough for a LHD.

And how difficult would it be to tow a LHD back to there for repairs?

 

[Milne Bay]

Thanks, I've often walked past it. Wasn't sure if the dry dock there was big enough for a LHD.

And how difficult would it be to tow a LHD back to there for repairs?

Why would the ship need a dry dock if the problem is electrical?
Repairs must surely be within the hull.
MB

 

[Redlands18]

Thanks, I've often walked past it. Wasn't sure if the dry dock there was big enough for a LHD.

And how difficult would it be to tow a LHD back to there for repairs?

Both LHDs have been in the Dry Dock for repairs to the Azimuth thrusters(about 2016-17) and scheduled Refits 2020-21. A 3500k Tow would be at the extreme end of options.

 

[Observer27]

Why would the ship need a dry dock if the problem is electrical?
Repairs must surely be within the hull.
MB

I asked because of discussion on this very topic yesterday about HMAS Choules being out of action for 9 months requiring dry dock and hull cuts due to fried power transformers. This strikes me as a perhaps a worst case scenario for HMAS Adelaide. Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[vonnoobie]

Thanks, I've often walked past it. Wasn't sure if the dry dock there was big enough for a LHD.

And how difficult would it be to tow a LHD back to there for repairs?

Garden Island graving dock is just shy of 350m long and 45m wide, You could 'almost' fit a Nimitz class carrier in there but not quite wide enough.

Why would the ship need a dry dock if the problem is electrical?
Repairs must surely be within the hull.
MB

It would depend on the nature of the repairs needed. If its simple then maybe they could do it dockside however if worst case its a major job they may have to cut open sections to swap parts out. So it may or may not be needed.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Garden Island graving dock is just shy of 350m long and 45m wide, You could 'almost' fit a Nimitz class carrier in there but not quite wide enough.

I think it probably would just fit, Nimitz is only 40m wide at the water line. Not sure if you could do any sensible work on it. Should fit a Queen Elizabeth class carrier in a simular way..

It can fit a LHD easily, and is where the LHD's are currently dry docked. Here is a link about the recent refit.

Huge maintenance task a first | Defence News

The recent completion of HMAS Canberra's maintenance is the first time an operation on such a scale had been performed in Australia.

news.defence.gov.au

From :Navy can't rule out design faults as cause of warship woes

If you want photos of the engine room.

HMAS Canberra: Private Tour

I had the good fortune to be invited to Sydney to tour of the flagship of the Royal Australian Navy, the HMAS Canberra. Tours aren’t uncommon – organised open days attract thousands of …

www.peninsularity.com

Nothing indicates the ship needs to be dry docked. Seems to be electrical and electrical distribution based. The Canberra class has quite accessible engine spaces.

If they can get the diesels working, then should be fine for a ~9kt sail. Even with just one diesel engine they should be able to perhaps make a slower journey or perform station keeping functions.

The LHD were designed to be serviceable while deployed. I don't know how effective that is, but they have more space in their engineering areas than most military ships do. Fault finding and limited spares will always be annoying and time consuming.

 

[icelord]

Power gives way to sail .....sometimes. I had the skipper of a Yacht yelling "power gives way to sail" at me while I was on the bridge of a Submarine entering Sydney ... his 30foot yacht was bouncing down the saddle tanks at the time.

The numb skull missed the Sydney port rules and rule 9 in respect of narrow channels and rule 18 in respect of vessels constrained by their draft. I understand the water police were less than sympathetic.

Rule 1, no matter what type of boat you have, the bigger one will have right of way if you're to small to be seen or heard

 

[StingrayOZ]

Rule 1, no matter what type of boat you have, the bigger one will have right of way if you're to small to be seen or heard

Don't recommend getting in front of a Manly ferry, with anything. Plenty of videos of them riding right over pleasure yachts.

There are always exceptions that prove the rule.

 

[icelord]

Don't recommend getting in front of a Manly ferry, with anything. Plenty of videos of them riding right over pleasure yachts.

There are always exceptions that prove the rule.

If I recall Manly Ferry's have right of way in Sydney Harbour over powered ships.

I remember doing a 3 ship entry into Sydney Harbour, one of those up at 5am cause we want the inside of the ship to look clean as we pass people 2km on the harbour who cannot see into the ship sort of deals.

As we approached Bradleys Head, some North shore yuppie in his kayak decided 7am was the perfect time to cross to Watson as 3 RAN ships plowed down the channel. No amount of horns or flashing light couls break his stride.

I often wonder if he's still alive of the Manly Ferry called him out on his morning routine and sunk the damn 1 man coffin.

 

[Morgo]

Thanks. I wasn't aware of the refit and the possibility the ship departed before full shakedown.

The issue regarding communications was in the article as a reported email written by the commander after several days of repair stating: "We are still experiencing issues with external communications".

It seems that the LHDs have too much on their plate.

If this is a result of the ship not being able to be properly maintained because our amphibious resources are stretched too thin then surely this is a major scandal. Where is the Pacific Support Ship? This would’ve presumably been one of its core responsibilities and would substantially lessen the burden on the LHDs. Equally the long overdue replacement of the Balikpapans could’ve helped avoid this scenario.

I’m sure someone in CASG knows exactly when these capabilities will be ordered and why the delay but I wish they’d get on with it.

 

[John Fedup]

This article is an update on the SSN Connecticut’s situation. Only posting this here because of comments wrt a lack of sub service in the Western Pacific and indeed even in the US itself. Perhaps a good time for AUKUS partners to begin a facility in Australia now.

Investigation Concludes USS Connecticut Grounded on Uncharted Seamount in South China Sea - USNI News

This post has been updated with a statement from U.S. 7th Fleet. Investigators have determined USS Connecticut (SSN-22) hit an uncharted seamount that grounded the nuclear attack submarine on the underwater feature in the South China Sea Navy, USNI News has learned. The results of the command...

news.usni.org

 

[Meriv90]

I think the T26 will be the best option in the end noting the FREMM is smaller than the Hunter and would have more issues carrying the systems and power supplies desired. Part of the issue is that defence accepted more risk and are trying to incorporate more systems at the get go with the batch I build. I understand the original intent was the first batch was intended to be minimal changes.

There is a lot of work going into this and if they get it right it will be a very good capability. Time may be the issue.

However, my faith in the Australian to report objectively is below zero. Let see what comes out of Senate Estimates or DOD directly.

Yeah the FREMM would have never survived such a huge redesign, too small, if the T26 is having problems accommodating everything, and having power generation issues with the FREMM it would have been even worse.

The problem with both Australian and Canadian programs isn't which ship was chosen but the delay to start the program.

Now both of you are too deep into the rabbit hole to change any course of action.

Question:

Wouldn't it be better to ask for a Leasing program from the US? As a stopgap ad interim solution? Some Constellations, or some Burkes? Like in the past was done with the F-16?

 

[spoz]

The rules in Sydney harbour has some pretty specific rules about who has right of way; essentially, a vessel which is over 100m and/or is restricted in its ability to manouevre and which is in a nominated channel has right of way over pretty well everything. (Note that the DDGs, for example, are 147m; an O boat was about 90 and a Collins a bit under 80). A vessel under 100 metres subject to the vessel managment system (VTS) has right of way over recreational vessels etc while in the channels. Ferries during daylight hours, when displaying the appropriate signal (flashing all around orange light) have right of way over sailing vessels (except when overtaking) but do not have right of way over ships subject to VTS in the channels.

There have been some interesting events in Sydney Harbour over the years. One, well remembered by those involved, was when a Manly ferry hit the carrier Melbourne while Melbourne was at a buoy. She was hit right aft, just where the officers' heads were located......