Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I'm pretty experienced in DC I just think it's a joke thinking your ship will survive either a torpedo or missile hit.
A lot of variables at play because it depends upon the type of weapon, warhead size, and where the hit is. Multiple hits do increase the probability that your ship will join Davy Jones locker. One of my DC instructors was on HMS Coventry when it was hit during the Falklands War.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some things I'd like to point out in regards to heavily armed corvettes such as the C90 is that crew size tends to scale with the number of systems you put on a ship rather than it's size. It's important that we don't waste weapons ETs and other specialised sailors (which the RAN is notably in short supply of) on fundamentally backline ships. Particularly when those backline duties can be done with a less armed and therefore also much cheaper vessel requiring few more specialised sailors than a patrol boat.

As for the combat capability they bring. You could just put that weapons and systems fit on a larger, more survivable and less AOR dependent (we've only got two of them) hull for really not a whole lot more money in terms of build and fitting costs without the issue of having to pack what would essentially be the specialist complement of an Anzac into a hull with half the displacement.
More and varied systems, more crew, more cost, more crew more power, less endurance and you can quickly see how projects spiral out of control.

Opv90 imo makes a better opv platform with options. But I'm not sure corvettes solve our problems...

Later this decade most of our surface combatants will be off-line. Our helicopters will mostly be grounded, our f35 won't have a good antishipping missile. Our subs will but cut in half and in dry dock.

A couple of destroyers would be needed to fill these gaps. But what can we get by 2028..
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
The outlook for the surface fleet really is an absolute disgrace. I can wrap my head around how we found ourselves where we are with the subs, but I cannot believe that we have allowed ourselves to get into such a situation with MFUs. Completely predictable and completely avoidable.

Julia Gillard & Co, a decade of Coalition governments and the journalists of this country should hang their heads in shame. The shipbuilding plan is a shambles. Of all the stuff that people bleat about needing a Royal Commission this beats most. We are going to be in a very precarious situation in the back half of this decade as a result of 13 years of indecision, half arsing, penny pinching and incompetence.

I am awaiting the outcome of the surface force review and hoping the current lot pull their finger out pronto afterwards. If the Yanks could put a man on the moon in 7 years we can build 4 - 6 Tier 2 combatants of a proven design (as in an Arrowhead 140 or Constellation class, not a tinny with a few slingshots) in the same period.

The question is are we willing to make the necessary sacrifices to do so? And are the Government willing to show the necessary leadership? I hope so, and haven’t seen anything that proves they won’t, but I’m not holding my breath.

I know I am rehashing topics that have been done to death previously, and there is no resolution to be had until the current review is complete, but I am absolutely flabbergasted at the state of affairs we find ourselves in.

Rant over.
 
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Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
A couple of destroyers would be needed to fill these gaps. But what can we get by 2028..
Serious question - what are the constraints driving the 2028 deadline for more surface fleet warships? Does this relate to overlapping retirement dates for some ships and long term maintenance for others? How many hulls out of the water are we looking at?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Serious question - what are the constraints driving the 2028 deadline for more surface fleet warships? Does this relate to overlapping retirement dates for some ships and long term maintenance for others? How many hulls out of the water are we looking at?
There are no real retirements its likely nothing important gets retired for 20 years. Its the upgrades and life extensions.
  • Collins gets their LOTE $6 billion upgrade
  • Hobarts get their $6b upgrade
  • Anzacs get their life extension and upgrade. Originally they were to be decommissioning by now, but now have to live onto ~2045? So just Phase1 of sea5014 is over $600m. This is the smallest, quickest, and least riskiest upgrade, but its on a old, already very upgraded platform, that has always had growth margin issues. Even when it comes out, its not exactly ideal for a peer war with China.
  • LHD also have some work required
  • AOR also have some work required
With the Hobarts, there are only three, so if you do any serious upgrade work then you loose deployable capability. That is the problem when you only build 3 of something. We knew this at the time. And we knew the AEGIS system and radar was already twighlighted before we even put them in.

The F-35 blk IV program will also result in reduced aircraft viability while its on going. Until it happens, the F-35 as a strike platform, particularly a maritime strike platform against a peer is pretty limited.

The adf helicopters other than Chinook/romeos all have big question marks on them.

There are multiple issues, in multiple areas. Some are Australian based, some are due to politicians, some are due to age of platforms, some are due to RAN, some are combination, some are ADF, some are due to global projects and US programs.
Huge issue going forward. But then again, not having any ships in the water doesn't exactly solve that problem either. Sure we don't need any crew if we don't have ships, but Australia needs a navy.. Not having a Navy doesn't solve capability needs.

We also aren't the only ones having issues either. The US will have no cruisers by 2027, effectively they are all broken now. The US fleet will be upgrading existing burkes to block 3, and retiring older blocks. The US has a massive submarine backlog of work, and of naval work in general.

Expecting someone else to flying and solve our problems is also farfetched. The UK has their issues, EU has their own threats, Asian allies may have more capability than Australia, but face much greater threats.

It is very much the time to grab onto some options, even if they aren't ideal.

Particularly given China's own pressures and needs that sees 2027-2028 likely to be peak China, before their economy starts shrinking and they end up tied down in their own dramas. Their best window to invade Taiwan will close for the next ~50 years. 2028 will see another US election. Even if US and China avoid war, they will still exist in 2028, competitive tension is likely to make the world unstable.

A confluence of factors.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wonder if it could take off and land on a Canberra Class?
From the link
The flight tests were the first-ever Short Takeoff and Landing (STOL) on a dirt surface for Mojave. Takeoffs were performed in as little as 586 feet; and short landings were completed in as little as 335 feet. The tests were primarily focused on gathering terrain feedback using Mojave, not achieving the shortest distances possible.
The Canberra class is ~700 feet long. It would seem that taking off in 180m (with or without the skijump, and landing using 100m, on dirt and unimproved runways, it would seem to be possible to operate such a craft from the LHD with significantly less space. Although more space may be required if you want more sensors or any weapons on it, but even then it would broadly seem to fit into the dimensions of the LHD.

The UK was going to trial it from its QE carriers for half a year. Not sure if those trials have started. But it would seem to be a reasonable fit for those type of platforms.

Not sure if it needs to be ship launched for Australia. Its range if ~4500km.. Although it may be quite neat to do it from time to time.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
More talk on msm about corvettes for the RAN, this time from Germany K130.
Have to wonder if the RAN will have corvettes thrust upon them.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
More talk on msm about corvettes for the RAN, this time from Germany K130.
Have to wonder if the RAN will have corvettes thrust upon them.
I have not seen the MSN article but noticed The Australian has a news grab.

"German bid to build $5bn corvette fleet for Australian Navy."

Not a subscriber so cannot add to the content other than the public are hearing some noise on the subject.

Where there's smoke there is fire!

Maybe.


Cheers S
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have not seen the MSN article but noticed The Australian has a news grab.

"German bid to build $5bn corvette fleet for Australian Navy."

Not a subscriber so cannot add to the content other than the public are hearing some noise on the subject.

Where there's smoke there is fire!

Maybe.


Cheers S
The article mentioned NL, TKMS, Navantia, Babcock etc. With Babcock it was a light frigate, not a Corvette.

It also repeated Peter Luerssons really weird comment about about ten of his corvettes having more VLS cells than one Hunter, WTF?
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
The article mentioned NL, TKMS, Navantia, Babcock etc. With Babcock it was a light frigate, not a Corvette.

It also repeated Peter Luerssons really weird comment about about ten of his corvettes having more VLS cells than one Hunter, WTF?
Peter Luersson has his products being made in Australia and knows his audience, he doesn't want to lose out on this.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
The article mentioned NL, TKMS, Navantia, Babcock etc. With Babcock it was a light frigate, not a Corvette.

It also repeated Peter Luerssons really weird comment about about ten of his corvettes having more VLS cells than one Hunter, WTF?
Think Peter is saying you can have 10 of his Corvettes for the same cost as 1 Hunter…
IMO, Babcock with NZ joining the program makes alot of sense atm.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Reading this article on the Mohave. Wonder if it could take off and land on a Canberra Class? Would offer a pretty good situational awareness if they could possibly add Sea Guardian capabilities.

Being able to take-off and land on a dirt airstrip is significantly easier than trying to do the same thing when both the UAV and the ship are independently moving in all 3 axes. Landing manned aircraft are hard enough when the pilot is in the aircraft, with the UAV the pilot is now remote and the points of reference used for landing perceived differently. As for the take-off there will be questions about the clearance between the starboard wing tip and the island on the LHD as well as the clearance of the propeller and the flight deck as the UAV takes off on the ski jump. All of this is before payloads etc are considered.
 

Stuart M

Well-Known Member
Think Peter is saying you can have 10 of his Corvettes for the same cost as 1 Hunter…
IMO, Babcock with NZ joining the program makes alot of sense atm.
If the Babcock offering is the Arrowhead 140 it only makes any kind of sense for NZ if it looks more like the Polish fitout than Type 31, and even then that may depend on the ASW capacity, at which point it's not the 'tier 2' platform that Australia wants.
Moreover NZ has not even begun tendering for it's frigate replacement yet, the timing doesn't work.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
From the link


The Canberra class is ~700 feet long. It would seem that taking off in 180m (with or without the skijump, and landing using 100m, on dirt and unimproved runways, it would seem to be possible to operate such a craft from the LHD with significantly less space. Although more space may be required if you want more sensors or any weapons on it, but even then it would broadly seem to fit into the dimensions of the LHD.

The UK was going to trial it from its QE carriers for half a year. Not sure if those trials have started. But it would seem to be a reasonable fit for those type of platforms.

Not sure if it needs to be ship launched for Australia. Its range if ~4500km.. Although it may be quite neat to do it from time to time.
The 16m wingspan maybe an issue, the Canberra's are 32m wide at the flight deck, subtract the width of the Island and it may be getting to tight for the RANs comfort,
 

swerve

Super Moderator
If the Babcock offering is the Arrowhead 140 it only makes any kind of sense for NZ if it looks more like the Polish fitout than Type 31, and even then that may depend on the ASW capacity, at which point it's not the 'tier 2' platform that Australia wants.
Moreover NZ has not even begun tendering for it's frigate replacement yet, the timing doesn't work.
The Polish fitout is described at 14 Jul 2023 briefing. Thales SM410 (SM400 Block 2?) & NS58 (presumably an NS50 variant - matches the latest published picture) radars, 4 x 8 Mk 41, 8x RBS.15 with option for 16, ASW torpedoes, Thales BlueHunter (Kingklip Mk 2) hull & Captas-2 towed sonars, etc. . .. . . A GP weapons & sensor fit, with reasonable ASW capability & no long-range radar or SAMs. Will come with basic CAMM (Sea Ceptor) but could carry CAMM-ER, & in theory the planned longer-range CAMM-MR.

How much of that would fit RNZN requirements?
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
The Polish fitout is described at 14 Jul 2023 briefing. Thales SM410 (SM400 Block 2?) & NS58 (presumably an NS50 variant - matches the latest published picture) radars, 4 x 8 Mk 41, 8x RBS.15 with option for 16, ASW torpedoes, Thales BlueHunter (Kingklip Mk 2) hull & Captas-2 towed sonars, etc. . .. . . A GP weapons & sensor fit, with reasonable ASW capability & no long-range radar or SAMs. Will come with basic CAMM (Sea Ceptor) but could carry CAMM-ER, & in theory the planned longer-range CAMM-MR.

How much of that would fit RNZN requirements?
Based on previous NZ actions and decisions regarding the frigates there is no reason why the Australian government should include any NZ requirements in the selection of a "Tier 2" vessel. The requirements should be based solely on what is needed to meet the roles nominated by the CoA.
 
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