Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Stampede]

I can't remember if I asked this before, but what's the reason for choosing a 25mm gun over the 30mm gun, in the RAN? Is it purely logistics? It's what we have at the warehouse, so we'll keep using them until they wear out, and use up all the 25mm ammo?

There's a video on Youtube, that several including ngatimozart, in the previous RAN thread, comment number 29,327, linked, which shows the 30mm gun causes 9 time more damage than the 25mm round, and 500m more range. Not to mention there are more types of shells now

Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

https://www1.gov.au/project/phalanx-close-weapons-system-block-upgrade Not sure whether the time frame for the upgrade has been posted here or not. Currently only 2 upgraded systems have been fitted, Sydney and Supply. 4 more systems should be back by now awaiting fitting and Hobart and Brisbane...

www.defencetalk.com

(yes, I searched 25mm guns and went through the 10 pages of listings)

The physical and cost differences between the two seem relatively small, compared to, say, 30 and 40mm. So aren't there 3x 30mm guns on say our Canberras, vs 3 x 25mm guns?

My understanding was the 25 mm Bushmaster was a deemed a good choice for what was the new Armidale Class Patrol boats back when they entered service.
The intention was a main gun to fulfill the constabulary role intended for these vessels.
The Bushmaster is a very reliable weapon integrated with the Typhoon weapon station.
It can carry a range of caliber from 20 to 30 mm.
Back then the 25mm was deemed OK for the role intended and was also in use with Army ASLAV vehicles.

Since then the 25 mm Typhoon has been added to the Hobart and Canberra Class and more recently the Supply Class.
Standardizing across the fleet makes sense, but the issue of caliber size is in question.
The new Hunter Class are suggested to have a 30 mm cannon..........Time will tell.
Many on DT have put in their two bobs worth as to what Navy should go with.
I think most would agree 25 mm is insufficient and It would not be to difficult to upgrade the existing mounts to accommodate the 30 mm size.
That extra 5 mm does make a big difference and should be considered if Navy want this size.
My fantasy fleet is still 40 mm

Whatever path is taken, I trust it's standardized across the fleet.
Will also be interesting if this has impact on what is used on the Arafura Class which currently has a temporary 25 mm mount.

Again time will tell

Cheers S

 

[ADMk2]

I can't remember if I asked this before, but what's the reason for choosing a 25mm gun over the 30mm gun, in the RAN? Is it purely logistics? It's what we have at the warehouse, so we'll keep using them until they wear out, and use up all the 25mm ammo?

There's a video on Youtube, that several including ngatimozart, in the previous RAN thread, comment number 29,327, linked, which shows the 30mm gun causes 9 time more damage than the 25mm round, and 500m more range. Not to mention there are more types of shells now

Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

https://www1.gov.au/project/phalanx-close-weapons-system-block-upgrade Not sure whether the time frame for the upgrade has been posted here or not. Currently only 2 upgraded systems have been fitted, Sydney and Supply. 4 more systems should be back by now awaiting fitting and Hobart and Brisbane...

www.defencetalk.com

(yes, I searched 25mm guns and went through the 10 pages of listings)

The physical and cost differences between the two seem relatively small, compared to, say, 30 and 40mm. So aren't there 3x 30mm guns on say our Canberras, vs 3 x 25mm guns?

ADF has significant experience with and investment into the 25mm Bushmaster system, having run it on ASLAV’s for 30 or so years. We domestically manufacture the ammunition for it and it remains a capable calibre at the ranges assessed as required by RAN.

RAN is beginning to move to 30mm x173mm just as Army is, with 30mm Typhoon guns being specified for the future Hunter Class (as secondary gunnery systems) and some speculation (Rafael is formally pitching it, apparently…) that system may end up as the main gun system on the Arafuras (though time will tell on that).

As seen with RAN’s weapon decisions over the last few years, a sense of urgency doesn’t really seem to be a priority with them.

Replacing the 25mm guns they have, is probably of very little import to them, in the scheme of things…

 

[76mmGuns]

ADF has significant experience with and investment into the 25mm Bushmaster system, having run it on ASLAV’s for 30 or so years. We domestically manufacture the ammunition for it and it remains a capable calibre at the ranges assessed as required by RAN.

RAN is beginning to move to 30mm x173mm just as Army is, with 30mm Typhoon guns being specified for the future Hunter Class (as secondary gunnery systems) and some speculation (Rafael is formally pitching it, apparently…) that system may end up as the main gun system on the Arafuras (though time will tell on that).

As seen with RAN’s weapon decisions over the last few years, a sense of urgency doesn’t really seem to be a priority with them.

Replacing the 25mm guns they have, is probably of very little import to them, in the scheme of things…

Thanks for the information. You're right- in the overall scheme of things, with all the big ticket projects going on , it's not that important.

 

[Stampede]

Thanks for the information. You're right- in the overall scheme of things, with all the big ticket projects going on , it's not that important.

True there are other bigger priorities.
That said, it would be interesting as to the math on up sizing to the 30mm calibre on the EXISTING Typhoon mounts.
The extra size does provide for increased range, lethality and choice or rounds.
A small project that may have merit if the price is appropriate for what is gained.

Cheers S

 

[DDG38]

"HMAS Sydney fires an Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile at Exercise Pacific Dragon during a Regional Presence Deployment." Image Source : ADF Image Library

 

[oldsig127]

The Navy League of Australia in the magazine "The Navy", discuss the options for filling the gap till SSNs are available.
They conclude the worst option is a Collins LOTE.
Second worst option is a new Submarine.
Instead they propose a completely new option which aims to reduce hull usage and avoid a full LOTE, which you can read about here for free from page 9:

https://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Navy-Sampler.pdf

View attachment 49594

Seeing Peta Credlin's name in the first paragraph made it hard for me to treat any of the article serious. Tony Abbot and Rupert Murdoch's attack dog and still making every effort to get Uncle Rupert's money back over the Abbott PM choice of a Japanese sub.
Aside from the abjectly stupid solution dreamed up,I distrust her certainty about the current state of affairs.

oldsi

 

[seaspear]

Interesting news that of increasing the pace of building and deploying drones to meet capability gap of current submarine program ,Im not sure they mean just building them to defend Sydney harbour
Robotic submarines fast-tracked for Sydney Harbour to bridge defence capability gap (msn.com)

 

[At lakes]

Interesting news that of increasing the pace of building and deploying drones to meet capability gap of current submarine program ,Im not sure they mean just building them to defend Sydney harbour
Robotic submarines fast-tracked for Sydney Harbour to bridge defence capability gap (msn.com)

No I think its the facility that will be building them is on Sydney Harbor. I think its the media playing with words, they are good at that

 

[hauritz]

I am very much a supporter of XLAUVs but I get a little nervous when they start talking about it as mitigating or somehow plugging the capability gap until the arrival of the new nuclear submarines. I have always considered myself to be platform agnostic and am open to new technology but at the same time am very uncomfortable at the idea of removing humans from the loop.

By necessity AUVs will rely very much on AI to perform their tasks. More so than air, land or surface vessels. A lot unknowns with this project.

 

[seaspear]

It used to be that projects like these were worked on in highly secure facilities like A.M.R.L without publicity , there would be Commonwealth police and other bodies of security on site , for personnel working on site requiring special screening and debriefing on leaving employment now you can read all about it lol

 

[OldNavy63]

It used to be that projects like these were worked on in highly secure facilities like A.M.R.L without publicity , there would be Commonwealth police and other bodies of security on site , for personnel working on site requiring special screening and debriefing on leaving employment now you can read all about it lol

Yep, just look up the address on Wiki, then Google Street view right through the boom gate!

 

[Mark_Evans]

Why would you like a red text?

An interesting proposal but as the article states the CoA hasn't made any decisions yet, and apart from that anything else is pure speculation. Can't blame them for trying.

And now Asia Pacific Defence is chiming in on the subject. Kym Bergmann.

Forget Collins LOTE – buy new submarines from Korea instead - APDR

One could never accuse South Korean companies of lacking in vision. DSME – one of the world’s premier ship and submarine construction companies - has developed a strategy that could see brand new, long-range, highly capable submarines starting to be delivered to Australia by 2033.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

 

[OldTex]

And now Asia Pacific Defence is chiming in on the subject. Kym Bergmann.

Forget Collins LOTE – buy new submarines from Korea instead - APDR

One could never accuse South Korean companies of lacking in vision. DSME – one of the world’s premier ship and submarine construction companies - has developed a strategy that could see brand new, long-range, highly capable submarines starting to be delivered to Australia by 2033.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

This might indicate that Kym Bergmann has had a trip paid for by DSME. His last foray into the RAN submarine arena (through the pages of APDR) extolled the 'virtues' of the A26 design (just after SAAB had taken him to Sweden). His opinion-for-hire does not contribute to the level of knowledgeable discussion required for this issue. I will wait and see what comes from the government review, for better or worse.

 

[John Newman]

This might indicate that Kym Bergmann has had a trip paid for by DSME. His last foray into the RAN submarine arena (through the pages of APDR) extolled the 'virtues' of the A26 design (just after SAAB had taken him to Sweden). His opinion-for-hire does not contribute to the level of knowledgeable discussion required for this issue. I will wait and see what comes from the government review, for better or worse.

Agree.

Whenever Kym gives his unbiased (cough, cough) editorial option, it’s usually tied to whoever has paid for advertising space in his APDR magazine.

Unbiased? My arse....

 

[Aussie optimist]

Unless I am missing something, I fail to see how we will be in a better situation by throwing all plans out the window and starting fresh with a submarine that doesn’t do what we require.

I get that we are not in a great position due to government inaction on both sides, however running around with our dicks in our hands shouting the sky is falling is not the answer.

People need to calm down, decisions need to be made regarding nuke sub and plans made. Unfortunately a LOTE is probably the best way forward, not ideal but the most logical path.
I apologise for the rant but I couldn’t contain myself.

 

[StingrayOZ]

This might indicate that Kym Bergmann has had a trip paid for by DSME. His last foray into the RAN submarine arena (through the pages of APDR) extolled the 'virtues' of the A26 design (just after SAAB had taken him to Sweden).

You mean this bit..

End the insanity and order interim submarines – now - APDR

When the new A26 class become available later this decade, the Royal Swedish Navy (RSwN) will be operating three generations of submarines simultaneously.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

Further articles will explore this topic, especially from the Swedish perspective in greater detail.

Looks like someone else got business class tickets for Kym before going back to Sweden.

I don't understand how this would ever replace LOTE. That is 6 submarines you are trying to replace. With what? something arriving 2033 for the first one? When do all six arrive? 2050?

I think its worth looking at what the Koreans are doing. And yes many of the LOTE equipment would be similar to what Korea is operating in their new subs, so I think IMO there is an opportunity to collaborate, share data, secondment. I think it is interesting what Korean industry has been able to achieve. There might even be opportunities to supplement Collins LOTE as a plan b and c until we know what is happening with the nuclear submarines. Knowing that several in our region operate similar submarines including Indonesia (209) and Singapore (218).

 

[Redlands18]

You mean this bit..

End the insanity and order interim submarines – now - APDR

When the new A26 class become available later this decade, the Royal Swedish Navy (RSwN) will be operating three generations of submarines simultaneously.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

Looks like someone else got business class tickets for Kym before going back to Sweden.

I don't understand how this would ever replace LOTE. That is 6 submarines you are trying to replace. With what? something arriving 2033 for the first one? When do all six arrive? 2050?

I think its worth looking at what the Koreans are doing. And yes many of the LOTE equipment would be similar to what Korea is operating in their new subs, so I think IMO there is an opportunity to collaborate, share data, secondment. I think it is interesting what Korean industry has been able to achieve. There might even be opportunities to supplement Collins LOTE as a plan b and c until we know what is happening with the nuclear submarines. Knowing that several in our region operate similar submarines including Indonesia (209) and Singapore (218).

By 2033 we should have 3 LOTE Collins in service and hopefully 1 SSN under construction and even steel cut on number 2.

 

[StingrayOZ]

By 2033 we should have 3 LOTE Collins in service and hopefully 1 SSN under construction and even steel cut on number 2.

Which is why its bonkers to put forward the idea serious of *replacement* and abandonment of collins with some other conventional. Which by Kyms own listing LOTE will have the similar systems, but better. You are going to get more subs, quicker with LOTE. More capability quicker.

Bonkers. Useful to benchmark. Useful to study. But as a replacement? How does that even work? He doesn't even outline how that would work.

 

[hauritz]

By 2033 we should have 3 LOTE Collins in service and hopefully 1 SSN under construction and even steel cut on number 2.

Also there should be a fleet of XLAUVs and UUVs in service by then. If we start thinking in terms of overall underwater capability then manned submarines simply become part of the mix. By the early to mid 2030s you will probably have UUVs routinely deploying from Hunters class frigates and XLAUVs patrolling the South China seas as part of some sort of Integrated Undersea Surveillance System.

I expect that delays in manned systems such as new nuclear submarines may well see an acceleration in the development of unmanned systems. No interim replacement of the Collins class will be sought and it wouldn’t surprise me if they were simply withdrawn from service, regardless of the status of their replacement,

Hopefully a new class of Nuclear submarines will be available before the last of the Collins retires.

 

[Lolcake]

Just read in the news this morning we are looking at aquiring 3 additional awds before 2030 (the australian).

Does this this entail a permanent increase to the fleet I.e 6 awds and 9 hunters

What are the options here if we are committed to the Hunters??

Areligh burke production lines looking fully stretched to providing the f3s to US fleet atm.