Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[swerve]

"a down-select decision was made to explore a variant" - not "a variant has been developed & built". And where is the "re-configured ", let alone "re-built"? They seem to be talking about adding the ability to control off-ship anti-mine craft to the mission system & fitting the vessels to carry those craft. To me, it looks like a fairly modest modification, probably something which can be retrofitted to add an extra, optional, capability.

In Singapore they're operating remote minehunters which look small enough to be carried on an Arafura from a container on a quayside with two or three people in it. And "completely changing the role of a major class of ship"? From the published descriptions of the class that sort of capability seems to have been planned in from the start. Y'know, all that stuff about modular mission payloads.

They could tack a few more hulls on the end of the Arafura build to replace the Huons, ready-fitted with the necessary kit.

 

[Rock the kasbah]

Australia and Papua New Guinea revive World War II-era naval base built by Americans

www.stripes.com

Duly chastened and changing subject

 

[spoz]

They could tack a few more hulls on the end of the Arafura build to replace the Huons, ready-fitted with the necessary kit.

That is more or less the plan of record as was at least implied in the 2020 FSP. There is an urgent need to replace the Armidales; the current MHCs can keep going for some years yet so why would they suddenly decide to re role the Arafuras of the current order for the less urgent task?

 

[ddxx]

Before essentially locking in for a build of ~20 vessels based on the Arafura, you'd imagine actually receiving the first of type and seeing how it performs would be essential.

I do wonder if going down that road would be a missed opportunity for the fleet as a whole. With MCM becoming more about vessels being 'motherships' for UVs, larger, more flexible platforms that can also add mass to the surface combatant fleet appear to make a lot more sense from my perspective. Babcock is pitching their Arrowhead 140 design for the UK's Type 32 project, which intends to combine MCM within a flexible GP frigate.

 

[MARKMILES77]

Surprised by these adds in the Defence Newspapers.
Seems strange that a program which is going to take 18 Months to even "assess a path forward." is already recruiting uniformed members from within the ADF now. SSNs are thought by most commentators, to be unlikely to be ready to enter service with the RAN until the late 2030s.
Might a pathway, which gets an SSN into service much more quickly than most people think be a possibility? Or is this just looking for people to be part of the asseessment team?

 

[Stampede]

Surprised by these adds in the Defence Newspapers.
Seems strange that a program which is going to take 18 Months to even "assess a path forward." is already recruiting uniformed members from within the ADF now. SSNs are thought by most commentators, to be unlikely to be ready to enter service with the RAN until the late 2030s.
Might a pathway, which gets an SSN into service much more quickly than most people think be a possibility? Or is this just looking for people to be part of the asseessment team?
View attachment 48700

Interesting add

Maybe a twenty year cadet-ship!
or maybe something else.

More details in 18 months aye what


Regards S

 

[StingrayOZ]

SSNs are thought by most commentators, to be unlikely to be ready to enter service with the RAN until the late 2030s.
Might a pathway, which gets an SSN into service much more quickly than most people think be a possibility? Or is this just looking for people to be part of the asseessment team?

They will want people to start on SSN training and familiarity almost immediately. You have to build a pipeline for training just like you need to build a pipeline for welders.

Going with the UK subs would mean we would have to more than double our existing submariner pool, going with US subs would be more akin to tripling the size of it. Scaling things up needs to start immediately. We have shortages in our current submariner fleet, so taking those out to scale creates more problems.

We will also need to integrate into the US/UK training in a way we haven't done before on a scale not done in 50 years.

 

[MARKMILES77]

They will want people to start on SSN training and familiarity almost immediately. You have to build a pipeline for training just like you need to build a pipeline for welders.

I thought about that but people trained now will be unlikely to ever serve on an Australian submarine if it doesn't enter service for 20 years. Average length of service being less than 20 Years. So you would have a pool of SSN trained people but no Australian SSNs for them to serve on. They would just spend their careers on the Collins Class.
And in twenty years when the SSNs arrive they wont be current, so they will just have to be trained again. anyway.

 

[John Newman]

I thought about that but people trained now will be unlikely to ever serve on an Australian submarine if it doesn't enter service for 20 years. Average length of service being less than 20 Years. So you would have a pool of SSN trained people but no Australian SSNs for them to serve on. They would just spend their careers on the Collins Class.
And in twenty years when the SSNs arrive they wont be current, so they will just have to be trained again. anyway.

So what we should just sit on our bums and twiddle our thumbs for the next decade or so??

I think we should be starting now, at least this is the start of identifying appropriate people for the various roles required to operate SSNs.

I would imagine that the people selected will spend a lot of time with our AUKUS partners, learning, training, gaining knowledge and eventually operating in senior positions on UK and US SSNs.

It may well be close to two decades before the first RAN SSNs are on operational deployment, but we’ll need skilled and trained people well before then.

 

[Stuart M]

I thought about that but people trained now will be unlikely to ever serve on an Australian submarine if it doesn't enter service for 20 years. Average length of service being less than 20 Years. So you would have a pool of SSN trained people but no Australian SSNs for them to serve on. They would just spend their careers on the Collins Class.
And in twenty years when the SSNs arrive they wont be current, so they will just have to be trained again. anyway.

Yes, they will be training on SSNs at various points, possibly without any Australian boats being in service, but this is about building depth of institutional knowledge and it takes time to acquire: In 20 years, assuming that's the time frame, those who start now may well be the senior rates and flag rank officers, they will need to have an understanding of the type of boats they will be issuing orders to and be able to advise politicians on their use and capabilities.

 

[Geddy]

We’ll be seeing more of this, particularly at the school leaver, potential uni entry candidates level. Perhaps we’ll see ADFA start offering scholarships in nuclear engineering type subjects. It’s entirely possible we won’t be waiting 20 years for the first vessel.

 

[ngatimozart]

Wonder how many RN nuke types will ship across. Might be quicker promotion for them as the RAN expand their submarine service. RN types will nuke tickets and experience will be a good bonus for the RAN. Possibly USN types as well although I think that they may find the change harder due to differences in service cultures.

 

[DDG38]

Wonder how many RN nuke types will ship across. Might be quicker promotion for them as the RAN expand their submarine service. RN types will nuke tickets and experience will be a good bonus for the RAN. Possibly USN types as well although I think that they may find the change harder due to differences in service cultures.

Lateral recruitment would already be underway, though generally the RAN has more success with the RN than the USN as we are more culturally aligned with the RN obviously. There is significant (beyond the glossy ad posted above) recruitment underway internally in Defence at the moment and the project is moving ahead at a great rate of knots. As stated above it takes time to grow experienced submariners (particularly senior rates), project staff and SMEs so you need to start now regardless of when you expect the first boat in the water.

 

[hauritz]

Timing is everything. If we have to wait 20 years for the first Australian built SSNs there mightn't be much point in training submariners for them now.

Even if we were to get our hands on second hand nukes now I doubt they would last the twenty years we would need in order to transition to an Australian built SSN.

There is also the issue of whether we could afford to second submariners to US or UK subs given that we are struggling already to fully crew the Collins class. Most industries agree that it takes around 10 years for people to become expert at their trade which might suggest we start training submariners for these new nukes in the early thirties.

 

[spoz]

Of course, nuclear submarines are not “most industries”!

However, we do have to build them, and then go through the activation process; and for both of those activities we need skilled and experienced people. We have those for surface ships and conventional submarines but not SSNs.

 

[StobieWan]

Wonder how many RN nuke types will ship across. Might be quicker promotion for them as the RAN expand their submarine service. RN types will nuke tickets and experience will be a good bonus for the RAN. Possibly USN types as well although I think that they may find the change harder due to differences in service cultures.

It'll be a war of retention bonuses I'm sure. Both the USN and RN throw shopping trolleys filled with used, non-sequentially numbered large denomination bills at nuclear qualified personnel. You can certainly easily spot the submariners in the car park - they're all driving RS6's

 

[StingrayOZ]

Its not just retention.

What do you do afterwards. Most submariners on boats a pretty young, unsurprisingly conditions, a shortage of personnel burn people up. Plus being located on an undetectable, metal tube underwater for 3 months isn't that supportive of family life either. Either is a whole career in stirling.

What do you do with them after they have done there time and want to get out? There are no civil reactors for them to run with well paid jobs for life. While we have been successful at poaching most type of sailors, nuclear technicians and officers are much harder. Money alone may not be enough.

There is already heavy retention bonuses being paid in the UK and US.

Navy Seeks To Retain Senior Submarine Officers with New Bonus Program - USNI News

The Navy starting in Fiscal Year 2019.is set to offer large bonuses – worth up to $180,000 in some cases – to retain senior submarine commanders.

news.usni.org

The Navy will begin offering large bonuses to senior captains in the submarine community – worth up to $180,000 in some cases – in Fiscal Year 2019 to boost retention.

Starting Oct. 1, the Navy will offer bonuses of $45,000 per year for senior submarine officers who sign two to four-year contracts. Signing a single-year contract will qualify for a bonus of $35,000, according to a policy released by Chief of Naval Personnel Vice Adm. Robert Burke.

We will have to change the age demographic of our submarine service. Aim to have people serve for decades in front line roles. You can't just continue to churn people. Whole concepts of how we operate with people will need to change.

For example, the recently approved FY 2019 National Defense Authorization Act gives the Navy the ability to retain junior officers with valuable skills but who did not screen for promotion. Previously, junior officers who did not promote were forced to leave the service.

This is for the USN. Which operates the largest SSN fleet, and has a massive civilian nuclear industry, massive military industry, and a massive physics and nuclear courses all over the country, large number of trades supporting nuclear industry. Huge population, and huge surface fleet to direct people from.

Going SSN means more than just chucking out diesels. You have to have to invest heavily in people, in science, in creating a whole high tech industry. Its a whole eco system.

 

[Gryphinator]

Across defence there are shortages. It's a simple fix really, bring back pensions and instant gold card for 20yrs of service. There has to be incentive and this does that. Free private health from the age of 37/38 with a liveable income? Sign me up(again)! Or university bursaries/scholarships for x amount of years. It'll cost, but if you want good people you have to pay.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Certainly its more than just a submarine or Navy issue.

All the ADF has issue attracting and retaining highly qualified and highly capable staff. Lateral transfers will only get you so far, and the US and the UK already has very attractive retention bonuses, and more than that, can offer careers outside of submarines.

We are going to have to grow our own, at least for the majority of it. We need to create a complete ecosystem for nurturing and growing talent, then retaining it. You can plug some gaps, and use lateral recruitment for some mild growth, but the core has to be healthy. People will have to want to join the force and have a reason to stay in it, and we need to draw from a wider pool, the whole national pool.

So throw into that an east base, with affordable housing, strong defence families support, good public schools for kids etc. You will have to roll the same for west coast and south Australia as well. Partner with RAAF and Army as well for their impossible engineering and technical trades.

 

[Stampede]

I believe there are currently only six nations with nuclear powered submarines.
In this club, China ,India and the USA come in at one,two and three by population size in a ranked scale of all the worlds nations.
Russia comes in at 9th place, followed by France and the UK each of a similar size in the 20 to 21 mark.

By population Australia is ranked at about 53.

Our population will grow both naturally and through immigration but at the end of the day this is our recruitment ground reality.

Crewing these future submarines will be a herculean task.

I trust some answers to this challenge are forth coming in the next eighteen months.

Regards S