Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[oldsig127]

Personally I think the capability to locally build UCAVs and ramp up production if necessary is more important than actual numbers. Operationally I don't imagine you would ever need to have more than a handful in service at any given time. I suspect most of the training could be done virtually.

Erm, isn't the point of these things to help overwhelm defences by, amongst other things, numbers of more disposable assets? Like for example four f-35 with a small constellation of wingmen? Certainly more than a couple unless I've totally missed the point.

oldsig

 

[hauritz]

Erm, isn't the point of these things to help overwhelm defences by, amongst other things, numbers of more disposable assets? Like for example four f-35 with a small constellation of wingmen? Certainly more than a couple unless I've totally missed the point.

oldsig

More than a couple ... but would you need more than a few dozen?

One of the points that seem to be emphasised in the new strategy paper is self-reliance which I take as maintaining a production base. The best way to do that might be to content ourselves with spreading out a production line over several decades rather than build several hundred in one hit and hope for export orders.

 

[vonnoobie]

Personally I think the capability to locally build UCAVs and ramp up production if necessary is more important than actual numbers. Operationally I don't imagine you would ever need to have more than a handful in service at any given time. I suspect most of the training could be done virtually.

But they go hand in hand. If we build to few then the economics will dictate a heavy reliance on imported parts and systems however if we build a larger amount then it will dictate a greater level of Australian content. If we want heavy Australian content but order minimal numbers then prices will be higher. It in the end comes down to a careful balancing act, order enough to fill ADF needs but not so much that it strains their support systems while not ordering too few so that it doesn't effectively just become assembly of CKD's (complete knock down).

 

[oldsig127]

More than a couple ... but would you need more than a few dozen?

One of the points that seem to be emphasised in the new strategy paper is self-reliance which I take as maintaining a production base. The best way to do that might be to content ourselves with spreading out a production line over several decades rather than build several hundred in one hit and hope for export orders.

Yes, certainly more than a couple of dozen for the RAAF, though not all at once.

It's a collaboration of RAAF and Boeing and if successful will be built here by Boeing and an Australian partner. I've never picked Boeing as philanthropic; they will want to build and sell as many as they can, and not only to the RAAF. And neither does the Australian Government. This is the thin end of a wedge to get our industry further back into high tech aerospace manufacturing and I'll bet is a higher priority to CoA now than before COVID because of the sudden realisation of how much our industry needs to be bolstered.

oldsig

 

[seaspear]

You might find that the Defence Science Technolgy Organisation is heavily involved in the Loyal Wingman project,

Australian-designed Unmanned Aircraft to be Developed

The Australian Government will partner with Boeing to advance an initial concept for an Australian-designed and developed unmanned aircraft system.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

it may have changed now but I recall that Boeing was set up inside the D.S.T.O complex in Fishermans bend at the time of the Wedgetail

 

[oldsig127]

You might find that the Defence Science Technolgy Organisation is heavily involved in the Loyal Wingman project,

Australian-designed Unmanned Aircraft to be Developed

The Australian Government will partner with Boeing to advance an initial concept for an Australian-designed and developed unmanned aircraft system.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

it may have changed now but I recall that Boeing was set up inside the D.S.T.O complex in Fishermans bend at the time of the Wedgetail

Yes, I reported the Chief Defence Scientist's speech to the press club some weeks ago, in which the collaboration of DSTO was mentioned.

Fisherman's bend though, is decades old news. The prototypes are being built in Brisbane which is where Boeing focus their Australian efforts these days

Loyal Wingman program marks key milestone - Australian Aviation

Boeing Australia has confirmed the completion of the first major fuselage structural assembly for the company’s first Loyal Wingman unmanned aerial system.

australianaviation.com.au

oldsig

 

[seaspear]

Its Fishermansbend plant is as this article suggests the only one in the world to have the unique resin infusion system in the world certainly at D.S.T.O types of resin developments were designed to keep the F111 flying longer were displayed which was longer than the U.S.A.F could back then

Boeing wants to double in size, and Australia is central to its plan

Boeing, the $200 billion aircraft maker, is using advanced manufacturing techniques at its plant in Melbourne to boost exports of products for the civil aviation market and possibly for military customers.

www.afr.com

 

[Bob53]

Its Fishermansbend plant is as this article suggests the only one in the world to have the unique resin infusion system in the world certainly at D.S.T.O types of resin developments were designed to keep the F111 flying longer were displayed which was longer than the U.S.A.F could back then

Boeing wants to double in size, and Australia is central to its plan

Boeing, the $200 billion aircraft maker, is using advanced manufacturing techniques at its plant in Melbourne to boost exports of products for the civil aviation market and possibly for military customers.

www.afr.com

That demand that Boeing was talking about might be somewhat deferred at this stage. The financial impact of CV19 on airline demand worldwide is massive.

 

[seaspear]

True but its history of research with D.S.T.O at F.B is well-founded,I have not worked there for some years but even now have to be circumspect

 

[StobieWan]

Getting back to aircraft etc, nobody has considered the Saab Griffin NG for the RAAF. According to the aircraft prices thread on this forum, the Swedish plane is less than half the cost of a F35a, and only a fraction of the running costs. And maybe could be manufactured here, something we havent done since the Mirage. I have always worried that the F35a could be subject to being hacked, thus putting our entire fleet out of action. I will leave it to the professionals on here to decide if this is possible, but if it is we must have an alternate aircraft in RAAF colours just for such an event.

Where do you get a cost for Gripen NG? There;s no mass production figure for that platform that I'm aware:?

 

[seaspear]

This article provides some costs for the Gripen ng as supplied to Brazil

Brazil receives first of 36 fighter jets bought from Sweden

Sweden’s Saab delivered to the Brazilian Air Force (FAB) the first aircraft of the 36 Gripen fighter jets purchased by the Brazilian government in 2014. The delivery ceremony was held Tuesday (Sep 10) in Linköping, Sweden, and was attended by Brazilian Defense Minister Fernando Azevedo, Air...

agenciabrasil.ebc.com.br

 

[Boagrius]

I think we already covered the Gripen question. On top of all the issues already identified, any version of Gripen would struggle to find relevance in a projected threat environment populated by HQ/HHQ9, J20, J31 and even late model J10/11/16. The RAAF is intent on becoming a 5th gen force ASAP for good reason IMO.

 

[ngatimozart]

Where do you get a cost for Gripen NG? There;s no mass production figure for that platform that I'm aware:?

I would agree. I think that the costs mentioned are only part of the deal. The flyaway cost cited in 2014 was US$69 million.

 

[ADMk2]

Getting back to aircraft etc, nobody has considered the Saab Griffin NG for the RAAF. According to the aircraft prices thread on this forum, the Swedish plane is less than half the cost of a F35a, and only a fraction of the running costs. And maybe could be manufactured here, something we havent done since the Mirage. I have always worried that the F35a could be subject to being hacked, thus putting our entire fleet out of action. I will leave it to the professionals on here to decide if this is possible, but if it is we must have an alternate aircraft in RAAF colours just for such an event.

We already do have an alternative aircraft - the Super Hornet, which has been in RAAF service for 13 years now featuring advanced capabilities such as AESA radar, LO technology and EW capabilities that SAAB are struggling to match, let alone exceed even in their ‘next generation’ variant...

I like the Gripen, but it’s a little, short-ranged fighter that introduces zero improvement in any area, over the existing fighter force we have today, let alone the extensive upgrades and expansion we have planned for our fighter force...

And due to economies of scale, I’m not sure it‘s anywhere near as cheap as the brochures suggest...

 

[Todjaeger]

We already do have an alternative aircraft - the Super Hornet, which has been in RAAF service for 13 years now featuring advanced capabilities such as AESA radar, LO technology and EW capabilities that SAAB are struggling to match, let alone exceed even in their ‘next generation’ variant...

I like the Gripen, but it’s a little, short-ranged fighter that introduces zero improvement in any area, over the existing fighter force we have today, let alone the extensive upgrades and expansion we have planned for our fighter force...

And due to economies of scale, I’m not sure it‘s anywhere near as cheap as the brochures suggest...

Not quite 13 years. The first flight of a Super Hornet for the RAAF occurred in July 2009 in the US. The arrival of the first set of RAAF SHornets in Australia proper happened several months later in early 2010. Australia signed the contract ordering the SHornets in 2007, which would be 13 years ago, but the aircraft were not built & completed until about two years later.

 

[seaspear]

You could refer back to the classic Hornet that entered with the R.A.A.F in 1983 for a length of service so in one version or another could be in service with the R.A.A.Ffor over 40 years

 

[Todjaeger]

You could refer back to the classic Hornet that entered with the R.A.A.F in 1983 for a length of service so in one version or another could be in service with the R.A.A.Ffor over 40 years

The SHornets and Classic Hornets are two very different birds. They look quite similar and have certain parts similarities as well as handling, which eased transition training, but they remain two different aircraft. Some examples of the different is that the SHornet is longer, has a greater wing area and wingspan and has both a greater empty and MTOW weight than a Classic Hornet.

 

[oldsig127]

Its Fishermansbend plant is as this article suggests the only one in the world to have the unique resin infusion system in the world certainly at D.S.T.O types of resin developments were designed to keep the F111 flying longer were displayed which was longer than the U.S.A.F could back then

You are correct of course. It's the design work being done in Brisbane. My apologies, and the second reminder to me inside a week not to post at 4am when my brain is only half working (out of a not particularly high level to begin with)

oldsig

 

[seaspear]

No apologies necessary no offence taken

 

[seaspear]

The SHornets and Classic Hornets are two very different birds. They look quite similar and have certain parts similarities as well as handling, which eased transition training, but they remain two different aircraft. Some examples of the difference is that the SHornet is longer, has a greater wing area and wingspan, and has both a greater empty and MTOW weight than a Classic Hornet.

No argument that they are two different birds, from the same nest though, just like so many of the Mirage jets from France were as well but kept the same moniker