Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

lobbie111

New Member
I'm getting that banging my head against a brick wall feeling. . .

What makes you think an NH-90 can carry an M777? According to NH Industries its maximum load is ">2500 kg" - probably not a huge amount more, & these things are usually measured in fairly benign conditions. No chance of lifting an M777 in one load. The M777 splits, but the heavier part has been reported as 2414 kg. Now, let us consider what happens to the lifting capacity of a helicopter in adverse conditions, such as very high temperatures, high altitudes, or (worst of all) both. Nope. Still need a bigger helicopter.

Sometimes, you need to lift equipment over obstacles. Imagine - there's a bridge down. You need to get some stuff across the gap, & can't wait until the gap is bridged, or boats are brought in. "Sorry, we didn't buy heavy lift helicopters to save money. Drive your stuff back to the nearest airfield, & we'll fly it to the nearest airstrip on the other side of the river. Of course, you'll have to secure it first. What? That's what you want those loads lifted over for?" :D

Of course, you also need the NH-90s. Can't use Chinooks for everything. Horrible waste of money, for a start. But sometimes, you need a Chinook, or something else that can do roughly the same job.
I think that is a tactics matter, the force needs to arrange itself in a way it can deal with these situations in a number of ways. You are also assuming that the infantries knowledge of building structures is non existent. Also imagine the burden on a force if its heavy lift element is stuck putting howitzers across the river...
 

swerve

Super Moderator
I think that is a tactics matter, the force needs to arrange itself in a way it can deal with these situations in a number of ways. You are also assuming that the infantries knowledge of building structures is non existent. Also imagine the burden on a force if its heavy lift element is stuck putting howitzers across the river...
I'm assuming nothing about bridge-building knowledge. Some rivers are too wide for bridgelayers. Bridging equipment is rare, & not necessarily where it's wanted. It can get destroyed by enemy action, for example. Building or repairing bridges without bridgelayers takes a long time. Boats aren't necessarily available (those pesky adversaries tend to remember to remove or sink them), or capable of carrying the loads you want to transport where you need to transport them.

This was one scenario. There are many others. And, although I do not wish to be impolite, your last comment could apply to anything heavy lift helicopters might be used for, so let us change it to "imagine the burden on a force if its heavy lift element is being used".
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
RAAF to convert 2 (of 5) MRTTs for VIPs. Hopefully more are purchsed to make up the shortfall for when the PM and/or Minsters are abroad (there was probably not enough airframes in the first place).

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23881629-662,00.html
So much for hoping that the RAAF would get more than 5 A330 tanker transports. If this report is correct it means that two of the five will be diverted to VIP work, which presumably will make them unavailable for general tanker/transport work. this sepresents a 60% loss in capability. :mad:

If it is only a short term fix until additional aircraft can be acquired then there may be some justification. If not it adds to my worries about the direction the present government is taking the ADF.

Tas
 

winnyfield

New Member
So much for hoping that the RAAF would get more than 5 A330 tanker transports. If this report is correct it means that two of the five will be diverted to VIP work, which presumably will make them unavailable for general tanker/transport work. this sepresents a 60% loss in capability. :mad:

No details have been released but, by convert I think it might be just a rearrangment of the MRTT passenger cabin - all the tanker bits might still be available. However it doesn't take away from the fact that when in VIP use, that's a capability shortfall.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I think the CH-47 would be on the must haves.

They have proved so essential to so many operations. Given that we will have atleast 2 LHD's capable of operating and hangering a chook, I would say there is even more demand for them over and above what we already need.
They ARE essential. It was a theoretical discussion before and somewhat interesting, but in reality, ADF will NOT be losing it's CH-47 capability. Quite the opposite in fact with at least 3 and possibly 6 more CH-47F's to be introduced to Army from 2012.

Chook is the only heavy lift thing we have that can pull big things on or off a LHD. It would also be one of the more effective. The LHD are primary air focused so to get the most out of those $2 billion purchases you need a good heavy lift helicopter.
Apart from cranes you mean? ;)
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
No details have been released but, by convert I think it might be just a rearrangment of the MRTT passenger cabin - all the tanker bits might still be available. However it doesn't take away from the fact that when in VIP use, that's a capability shortfall.
The RAAF's KC-30's were intended to be fitted with a "standard" airliner type interior, with a "business class" cabin and an "economy class" section comprising the majority of the 230 odd seats.

I'm guessing at least some of the 3x options which RAAF holds on KC-30B's and are due to expire in December, will be taken up if this story is to come true. Afterall the current BBJ's are enough for our politicians, it is only the media whinging about being forced to take "public" airlines that is pushing this barrow...
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I think the CH-47 would be on the must haves.

They have proved so essential to so many operations. Given that we will have atleast 2 LHD's capable of operating and hangering a chook, I would say there is even more demand for them over and above what we already need.

Chook is the only heavy lift thing we have that can pull big things on or off a LHD. It would also be one of the more effective. The LHD are primary air focused so to get the most out of those $2 billion purchases you need a good heavy lift helicopter.
I agree, hellicopter lift before air lift, although I like the Spartan. But I also like the LHDs and helicopters better. I'm not sure whether a Chinook will fit into a LHD hangar, however I do know they can ride on an LHD flight deck.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
No details have been released but, by convert I think it might be just a rearrangment of the MRTT passenger cabin - all the tanker bits might still be available. However it doesn't take away from the fact that when in VIP use, that's a capability shortfall.
You didn't think they would always be tankers, did you? With passenger and freight combinations included with the aircraft, surely you expected the RAAF to use them for cargo and passengers too.

I'm not sure exactly how tanking works in Australia, but in the US tankings are scheduled in advanced. In a war zone tankings are also usually scheduled in advance. When the tankers aren't scheduled for tanking, its wise to use them for cargo and passenger usage. Its also wise to use them to do both duties at the same time.

As for the media and ViP flights, losing a few aircraft for a while isn't the end of the world, especially when the aircraft aren't scheduled to do any tankings. Plus I don't think the PM or another high official will be flying abroad in a pre-crisis situation.

I am sure one or two of the tankers will be held in reserve for emergency tanking duties at any given time.
 
Last edited:

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
You didn't think they would always be tankers, did you? With passenger and freight combinations included with the aircraft, surely you expected the RAAF to use them for cargo and passengers too.

I'm not sure exactly how tanking works in Australia, but in the US tankings are scheduled in advanced. In a war zone tankings are also usually scheduled in advance. When the tankers aren't scheduled for tanking, its wise to use them for cargo and passenger usage. Its also wise to use them to do both duties at the same time.

As for the media and ViP flights, losing a few aircraft for a while isn't the end of the world, especially when the aircraft aren't scheduled to do any tankings. Plus I don't think the PM or another high official will be flying abroad in a pre-crisis situation.

I am sure one or two of the tankers will be held in reserve for emergency tanking duties at any given time.
The issue with "losing" a few aircraft from tanking/transport roles for VIP service, is that the RAAF will only have a few aircraft available. Only 5 A330 MRTT aircraft are currently planned for service. If two of them end up assigned to VIP duties, even on a routine but not permanent duty, that is 40% of the RAAF tanker force. Keep in mind that is before any availability issues due to maintenance, training, etc.

Given the currently announced small numbers ordered, such a difference is significant for Australia.

-Cheers
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
No details have been released but, by convert I think it might be just a rearrangment of the MRTT passenger cabin - all the tanker bits might still be available. However it doesn't take away from the fact that when in VIP use, that's a capability shortfall.
Looking at the MRTT blerb the VIP configuration shoul dnot effect the aircraft tanker role. However, it si interesting the the last government id just fine wiht a BBJ and tis one wants na A330.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
The issue with "losing" a few aircraft from tanking/transport roles for VIP service, is that the RAAF will only have a few aircraft available. Only 5 A330 MRTT aircraft are currently planned for service. If two of them end up assigned to VIP duties, even on a routine but not permanent duty, that is 40% of the RAAF tanker force. Keep in mind that is before any availability issues due to maintenance, training, etc.

Given the currently announced small numbers ordered, such a difference is significant for Australia.

-Cheers
Exactly - a 'few' is a significant number when there are only five in inventory and one of those is likely to be in maintenance. When the RAAF used the 707s for VIP work as well as the tanker/transport role it had more than 5 in its peak inventory. Unless the options for additional aircraft are taken up this move will definitely represent a decline in planned capability for the tanker/transport role.

Tas
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
Here is an article I read awhile ago:http://news.theage.com.au/national/raaf-fighters-could-be-outgunned-expert-20080327-21wc.html

RAAF fighters of the future could be outgunned by new Russian-built aircraft which carry far more missiles and fire them in salvos to make a hit more likely, an air power expert believes.

Dr Carlo Kopp, head analyst with the defence think tank Air Power Australia, said the side that could fire the most missiles stood the better chance of winning in this type of beyond visual range (BVR) combat.

Dr Kopp said the most optimistic scenario for the RAAF showed it losing one Super Hornet or one Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) for every Sukhoi Flanker shot down.

Current and future RAAF air dominance is based on detecting targets at long range then destroying them using missiles such as the AIM-120 AMRAAM (advanced medium-range air-to-air missile).

AMRAAM has an extensive combat record and has successfully shot down Russian built aircraft in conflicts in Iraq, Kosovo and Bosnia.

The latest AMRAAM model has a range of almost 200 kilometres and a claimed 90 per cent probability of destroying its target.

But Dr Kopp said experience over the last 30 years has shown that beyond visual range missile shots were not very reliable.

"The Russian approach to solving this is to carry 2-3 times as many missiles and shoot them off in big salvos so you are guaranteed a hit," he said.

"The corollary of that is that fighters like JSF and Super Hornets are outgunned in this game because the Russians carry many more missiles. Once a JSF or Super Hornet fires off all its missiles, it's a sitting duck."

Dr Kopp said the latest Flanker aircraft, now entering service with some regional air forces, could carry up to a dozen beyond visual range missiles of various types.

JSF will be able to carry up to four AMRAAMs in its internal weapons bay. As many as four more could be carried externally, although at the expense of performance, extra fuel and a significant degradation of its stealth capability.

Super Hornets can now carry up to 10 AMRAAMs, again at the expense of extra fuel and performance.
 

Beagle

New Member
Here is an article I read awhile ago:http://news.theage.com.au/national/raaf-fighters-could-be-outgunned-expert-20080327-21wc.html

RAAF fighters of the future could be outgunned by new Russian-built aircraft which carry far more missiles and fire them in salvos to make a hit more likely, an air power expert believes.

Dr Carlo Kopp, head analyst with the defence think tank Air Power Australia, said the side that could fire the most missiles stood the better chance of winning in this type of beyond visual range (BVR) combat.

Dr Kopp said the most optimistic scenario for the RAAF showed it losing one Super Hornet or one Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) for every Sukhoi Flanker shot down.

Current and future RAAF air dominance is based on detecting targets at long range then destroying them using missiles such as the AIM-120 AMRAAM (advanced medium-range air-to-air missile).

AMRAAM has an extensive combat record and has successfully shot down Russian built aircraft in conflicts in Iraq, Kosovo and Bosnia.

The latest AMRAAM model has a range of almost 200 kilometres and a claimed 90 per cent probability of destroying its target.

But Dr Kopp said experience over the last 30 years has shown that beyond visual range missile shots were not very reliable.

"The Russian approach to solving this is to carry 2-3 times as many missiles and shoot them off in big salvos so you are guaranteed a hit," he said.

"The corollary of that is that fighters like JSF and Super Hornets are outgunned in this game because the Russians carry many more missiles. Once a JSF or Super Hornet fires off all its missiles, it's a sitting duck."

Dr Kopp said the latest Flanker aircraft, now entering service with some regional air forces, could carry up to a dozen beyond visual range missiles of various types.

JSF will be able to carry up to four AMRAAMs in its internal weapons bay. As many as four more could be carried externally, although at the expense of performance, extra fuel and a significant degradation of its stealth capability.

Super Hornets can now carry up to 10 AMRAAMs, again at the expense of extra fuel and performance.
This topic on carlo and f-22 supporter co has been done to death. Anyone with any remote knowledge on australias requirements knows the above is BS as is bassically anything comming from their mouth. Can I ask please no more on these guys untill there is something new worth talking about; like one of them finally realises they have no idea and decides to shut up.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
This topic on carlo and f-22 supporter co has been done to death. Anyone with any remote knowledge on australias requirements knows the above is BS as is bassically anything comming from their mouth. Can I ask please no more on these guys untill there is something new worth talking about; like one of them finally realises they have no idea and decides to shut up.
Hey I never said I agreed with this article. I know the F-35 will be a capable fighter and 4-8 AMRAAMs and 2 AIM-9s and a 25mm cannon is more than enough. I was just showing the article to see what people think of it thats all, did not mean any harm.
 

rjmaz1

New Member
Chook is the only heavy lift thing we have that can pull big things on or off a LHD.
You are assuming the C-27J cant operate off the LHD.

For the Combat Rescue Tanker i heard GMAS mentioned the C-27J's carrier compatibility. If that is indeed true, which is highly likely considering C-130 has easily operated off an aircraft carrier and the C-27J is smaller with superior STOL performance. The C-27J would be great for the RAAF even if its just to refuel helicopters and for long distant resupply to a deployed LHD. Mini-MRTT

There are a lot of assumptions going on here regarding the C-27J vs Chinook.

Most of the reasons mentioning why the Chinook should be purchased over the C-27J i think are completely invalid. Pretty much ever scenario used to justify the Chinook could also be performed by the C-27J if required. Unless you want to float on a lake..

I agree, hellicopter lift before air lift, although I like the Spartan. But I also like the LHDs and helicopters better. I'm not sure whether a Chinook will fit into a LHD hangar, however I do know they can ride on an LHD flight deck.
Well i know the Spartan definitely wont fit the hanger. ;)
 
Last edited:

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Hey I never said I agreed with this article. I know the F-35 will be a capable fighter and 4-8 AMRAAMs and 2 AIM-9s and a 25mm cannon is more than enough. I was just showing the article to see what people think of it thats all, did not mean any harm.

Perhaps it would be better to do a search on the individual and the topic before posting such subject matter again, if you had you'd have seen the somewhat consistent and considered responses to the rubbish that gets promoted by them as incisive.

That topic has been done to death, their expertise and views are of a known quantity - and the subject has been comprehensively debated in here ever since Armitage hinted at F-22's for Australia. It's also why one of the F-22 threads was locked as it was being populated by inane responses from a particular idealogical group.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
You are assuming the C-27J cant operate off the LHD.
Are you saying it does. Are you prepared to fly it?

The american have far larger/faster carriers. Yes a 130 can land and take off (just). Don't expect it to carry very useful loads (maybe personel only). With clear decks (impossible) and in good conditions (again unlikely). They don't do it as a matter of regular operations.

Our LHD isn't big enough to land a C-27 I would think. we don't have BAR fitted for starters. People argue the F-35B is too much aircraft for the LHD, a 27J is a whole other dimention.

The Chinooks can be hangered most likely with the removal of the rotors. This is a hour or so job and is regularly performed by the UK and other navies. If folding rotors can be developed then this would improve things even more so.

Cranes are unlikely to conviently located and are unlikely to take equipment and troops where they are needed. Although yes, they are useful when loading a ship in Australia. While the floodable dock will take the really heavy loads if there is no convient port nearby. But floodable docks may not be that useful, particularly at the start of a conflict.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Here is an article I read awhile ago:http://news.theage.com.au/national/raaf-fighters-could-be-outgunned-expert-20080327-21wc.html

RAAF fighters of the future could be outgunned by new Russian-built aircraft which carry far more missiles and fire them in salvos to make a hit more likely, an air power expert believes.

Dr Carlo Kopp, head analyst with the defence think tank Air Power Australia, said the side that could fire the most missiles stood the better chance of winning in this type of beyond visual range (BVR) combat.

Dr Kopp said the most optimistic scenario for the RAAF showed it losing one Super Hornet or one Lockheed F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) for every Sukhoi Flanker shot down.

Current and future RAAF air dominance is based on detecting targets at long range then destroying them using missiles such as the AIM-120 AMRAAM (advanced medium-range air-to-air missile).

AMRAAM has an extensive combat record and has successfully shot down Russian built aircraft in conflicts in Iraq, Kosovo and Bosnia.

The latest AMRAAM model has a range of almost 200 kilometres and a claimed 90 per cent probability of destroying its target.

But Dr Kopp said experience over the last 30 years has shown that beyond visual range missile shots were not very reliable.

"The Russian approach to solving this is to carry 2-3 times as many missiles and shoot them off in big salvos so you are guaranteed a hit," he said.

"The corollary of that is that fighters like JSF and Super Hornets are outgunned in this game because the Russians carry many more missiles. Once a JSF or Super Hornet fires off all its missiles, it's a sitting duck."

Dr Kopp said the latest Flanker aircraft, now entering service with some regional air forces, could carry up to a dozen beyond visual range missiles of various types.

JSF will be able to carry up to four AMRAAMs in its internal weapons bay. As many as four more could be carried externally, although at the expense of performance, extra fuel and a significant degradation of its stealth capability.

Super Hornets can now carry up to 10 AMRAAMs, again at the expense of extra fuel and performance.
What a pile of BS. Thanks, I will cancel my Age subscription.

If a Flanker fighter was carrying 14 long range missiles, it would have a large radar signature, I would fly a Lightning II, shoot off a long range missile from the inside bay and fly home knowing he never knew what hit him.
 
Top