What non-NATO member? What US airbase?
Australia. Australia is not a full or participating treaty member of NATO.
Ramstein. The Australian E7 is based and flown out of Ramstein. Ramstein is a USAF base.
en.wikipedia.org
aviationweek.com
Everything you have said in those two sentences is true. But the Australian E7 is based out of Ramstein, not Geilenkirchen.
Being owned by Australia would make it Australian owned, and its nationality and identity Australian. It has Australian markings I never said it was completely developed and built in Australia and that Australia owned all the IP and development/production capability for this aircraft, the E7 or the 737 its based on. The 737 is quite famously, made in the USA.
en.wikipedia.org
The MC-55 is very complimentary and is part of providing over all capability. It is much more of a dedicated listening platform, and for many reasons it often makes sense to have your listening platform not always the same as your battle management platform/AEW platform, although there is some overlap.
Since when has Germany been dependent on one Australian E-7 operating in support of Ukraine (& mostly flying over Poland, AFAIK) as part of a mainly NATO operation? At the last count, NATO members & Sweden (in the process of joining) were operating 28 land-based AEW aircraft in Europe, plus 4 in Turkey. 16 of those 28 were based in Germany, 14 of them at Geilenkirchen. You speak as if the single Australian aircraft is the only one that counts, & it's operating to cover Germany - which it isn't.Australia. Australia is not a full or participating treaty member of NATO.
Ramstein. The Australian E7 is based and flown out of Ramstein. Ramstein is a USAF base.
Ramstein Air Base - Wikipedia
Australian Wedgetail Begins Surveillance Flights In Eastern Europe | Aviation Week Network
The Royal Australian Air Force has deployed one of its Boeing E-7 Wedgetail AEW aircraft to Europe as part of its military assistance to Ukraine.
Perhaps some of the confusion around this is Turkey had earlier flown their E7 out of Geilenkichen and that yes, NATO E3s are flown out of there. But that is not where the Australian E7 is currently operating out of, nor where Australian personnel are based in supporting it.
While Australia is NATO friendly, and contributes to NATO and NATO missions perhaps more than many NATO members, it is often easier to operate directly out of US bases than out of NATO bases. Also the US is disbanding its E3's and has excessive E3 crews, and is acquiring E7's, so having everyone on a US airbase makes sense. NATO's E7 acquisition is a much later thing, and NATO hasn't disbanded any of its E3's.
Everything you have said in those two sentences is true. But the Australian E7 is based out of Ramstein, not Geilenkirchen.
Being owned by Australia would make it Australian owned, and its nationality and identity Australian. It has Australian markings I never said it was completely developed and built in Australia and that Australia owned all the IP and development/production capability for this aircraft, the E7 or the 737 its based on. The 737 is quite famously, made in the USA.
Boeing 737 - Wikipedia
The Australian E7 is supporting NATO (of which Germany is a member). Turkey has also been flying its E7 in support of NATO, Turkey is a NATO member.
All units have the same capabilities? I thought we had discussed this, the difference between the E7 and the E3. I didn't know the E3 which is being directly replaced by the E7 in the US, UK and NATO, has the exact same capabilities and has no issues regarding avalibility. I also didn't know Erieye or El/w-2085 has the exact same capabilities, its weird that NATO went with E7's instead of Erieye or ELw2085.
I would say its making a very valuable, outsized, contribution. In many cases it is the only aircraft with some capabilities.
www.flightaware.com
www.flightaware.com
Australia has a complex relationship with the EU, with NATO, with Germany. Germany has a complex relationship with the US and its other NATO partners. Certainly my comments and opinions are not definitive.
Not quite a myth. I think I am referring to it being quite symbolic. But as you can see from those tracking E3 flights, those many E3's don't seem to be getting a lot of flight hours. Some would say effectively none, some may say they are performing their mission from the ground. I agree, no, one Australian E7 isn't single handedly solving everyone's issues, but I feel like it is making a significant contribution. I am sure they would like Turkeys E7 flying more from Eastern Europe, but that doesn't help Turkeys priorities and Turkey has its own lists of demands and operates from its own airspace and prioritizes Turkeys interests (which include grain shipments, sea control issues, etc). Turkey may want to block Sweden from NATO, Germany may want Sweden in NATO.
Perhaps I am being obtuse. It feels to me like the Americans may want NATO states to acquire E7 capabilities. Maybe I am wrong on that front, maybe they want them to operate the E3 until 2035 or other smaller aircraft or in Germanys case, no aircraft/capability. It also feels to me that Germany has some sort of interest in being more self reliant, or western European powers being more self reliant in key capabilities. Again, perhaps I am wrong on that front, and perhaps managing battlespaces is not a capability Germany is interested in.
www.politico.eu
I feel like there is quite a divide going on and that the German military is quite frustrated with these Franco-German cooperation initiative that tend to have weak or hollow capabilities on the ground or in the air. I think the F-35 and the P8 acquisitions are tangible examples of that, and frustrations of NH90 and Tiger are also noted. The German political elite also seem to be doing some more listening from within, from the military. It feels like they want capabilities they can use immediately around them. An E7 operating from a US base from within Germany would seem to fit that kind of capability. Now with commitment to P8s and F-35's, and Uk/US/NATO acquisition of E7, it may be that they will see that as a useful capability to add to a modern fighting force. Now that the E7 capabilities are more than just a battlefield traffic control are known, and how it operates in and around conflicts, it may help them understand that this may be some thing that was excuse the pun, not on the radar earlier.
German air force plans major Asia-Pacific tour in 2024 (defensenews.com)Not quite a myth. I think I am referring to it being quite symbolic. But as you can see from those tracking E3 flights, those many E3's don't seem to be getting a lot of flight hours. Some would say effectively none, some may say they are performing their mission from the ground. I agree, no, one Australian E7 isn't single handedly solving everyone's issues, but I feel like it is making a significant contribution. I am sure they would like Turkeys E7 flying more from Eastern Europe, but that doesn't help Turkeys priorities and Turkey has its own lists of demands and operates from its own airspace and prioritizes Turkeys interests (which include grain shipments, sea control issues, etc). Turkey may want to block Sweden from NATO, Germany may want Sweden in NATO.
Perhaps I am being obtuse. It feels to me like the Americans may want NATO states to acquire E7 capabilities. Maybe I am wrong on that front, maybe they want them to operate the E3 until 2035 or other smaller aircraft or in Germanys case, no aircraft/capability. It also feels to me that Germany has some sort of interest in being more self reliant, or western European powers being more self reliant in key capabilities. Again, perhaps I am wrong on that front, and perhaps managing battlespaces is not a capability Germany is interested in.
Germany aims to be Europe’s ‘backbone of deterrence’
Presented by ASD By CALEB LARSON with LAURA KAYALI, JOSHUA POSANER, VERONIKA MELKOZEROVA, JAN CIENSKI, CAMILLE GIJS and ANTOANETA ROUSSI PRESENTED BY View in your browser or listen to audio SNEAK P…
Perhaps my feelings are wrong. Europe & geopolitics is complicated.
I feel like there is quite a divide going on and that the German military is quite frustrated with these Franco-German cooperation initiative that tend to have weak or hollow capabilities on the ground or in the air. I think the F-35 and the P8 acquisitions are tangible examples of that, and frustrations of NH90 and Tiger are also noted. The German political elite also seem to be doing some more listening from within, from the military. It feels like they want capabilities they can use immediately around them. An E7 operating from a US base from within Germany would seem to fit that kind of capability. Now with commitment to P8s and F-35's, and Uk/US/NATO acquisition of E7, it may be that they will see that as a useful capability to add to a modern fighting force. Now that the E7 capabilities are more than just a battlefield traffic control are known, and how it operates in and around conflicts, it may help them understand that this may be some thing that was excuse the pun, not on the radar earlier.
I am not trying to build straw men. I am only trying to communicate my points. I am not intending to put words in anyone's mouth, so sorry. I guess I am trying to clarify points we both agree on.
It just seems like their is this belief that GlobalEyre or E3 can do exactly the same missions and capabilities as a modern E7. Which is not the case. I know this is a difficult field to talk about publically, as much of the capabilities are not public. Yeh, they can do the air traffic stuff, particularly in peacetime when your talking about aircraft with beacons and large radar returns, but that clearly isn't the only role the E7 are doing and why the US/UK is urgently acquiring them. Why they have no interest in smaller competitors that can do some parts of the mission and have a much smaller sensor/transmitter and less manpower and processing and less development.
I think the Germans are very interested in the RAAF and its capabilities. I expect them to take further interest specifically in Australian capabilities in 2024. Australia can provide a good example of a well funded, independent capable air force, that is affordable and effective.
I think and hope where that is going. The NATO fleet replacement is quite small. Germany can afford to buy and operate E7's, unlike smaller nations that tend to acquire capability through NATO joint capability. Also, having capability that is directly operated by a country can be useful as it can be easier to commit to new threats than going through NATO.
This will be a very big deployment for them. I expect they will have a very close look at the RAAF F-35 fleet and its operations and enablers. Among other things. They previously made a big deployment back in 2022 for Pitchblack, included Singapore and Japan.
Some..
Yes, but Germany's traditionally been one of the countries tied most closely to NATO & least likely to do anything alone. Note that Germany used to have its own AAR aircraft, but was keen on a joint AAR fleet within NATO - & got it.
It is extremely unlikely that Germany will ever obtain an AEW capability outside the joint NATO-operated fleet - partially because Germany does not plan for symmetric operations requiring thus outside a common NATO operation.
True, but that predisposes that the E7 can only be used for symmetric operations and that NATO has enough innate ability for itself and Germany and NATO always see things the same.
We have JORN.. we can sense B2's flying in and out of CONUS bases through JORN. We have had the capability to detect even small munition launches from the mid east and north asia, for 20+ years. Before we acquired E7.
www.australiandefence.com.au
Bingo cost/manpower are very valid points. But use and usefulness may have changed given recent developments regarding things like drones. It would seem the E7 is quite valuable currently.
I can see Japan buying E-7. Its AEW 767s are newer than any E-3s, & the airframes should have more useful life left, but have the same radar, so should be equally affected by radar obsolescence. Japan operates a mixture of E-767 & E-2, & it's buying more E-2D, presumably intending to replace its E-2Cs. It already operates several E-2D. The only analogue of that advance in radar generation in AEW aircraft on the scale of the E-3/E-767 is buying E-7. It'd be a logical follow-on. I think it can't be done soon, though, because there's a queue to buy E-7s.