Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Not wanting to pollute the RCAF thread with specific RAAF comments, I'll put this one here.

In the RCAF thread, Maur River said: Thanks for your reply. I guess like many I hope an early decision has been made to purchase the remaining 28 F-35As. I noted the Australian Aviation article also had a question mark in the title so even the professionals are confused!
Click to expand...
The question as when and how soon a decision is made to eventually proceed with the replacement of the Super Hornets with the 4th Squadron of F-35A is one thing, the more important question (to me anyway), is to ensure that when the Super Hornets leave RAAF service, that the F-35A fleet has the 'full' AShM capability that won't be available with Block 3F software.

As I understand it, JSM (for example) won't be available for use on the F-35A fleet until Block 4 software is available (and for specific users too), I think there are also 'other' versions of Block 4 in following years too, 4.1, 4,2, 4,3 and so on.

It does get a bit confusing, I've seen many charts of what will (and won't) be integrated with the various software 'block' releases, it appears to be a bit of a moving feast as to what weapon is in and out of the various releases, and what follows in the next release and so on, and for which version of the airframe too.


As it stands 'today', the RAAF Classic fleet has Harpoon (and JASSM) capability, the Super fleet has Harpoon and JSOW-C1 capabilities.

So whilst I'm all for the F-35A when it arrives, and what it will deliver, and as the various Block releases allow for more weapons to be integrated in the future, we will actually go 'backwards' for a while with the retirement of the Classic fleet in regard to AShM weapons.

And this is where (in my opinion), that we should keep the Super fleet in service, with their Harpoon and JSOW-C1 capability, at lease until the F-35A fleet has that capability too.

Where things also get a bit confusing, is that some weapons will be 'universal' across the F-35A, B and C fleets, there are some weapons that are specific to one version or the other, my understanding is that JSOW-C1 won't be a USAF weapon on the A model, but is a weapon on the USN C model (but I understand that we will carry it over from Super Hornet for RAAF use on our A models).

JSM for example is not likely to be integrated on USAF A's, but will end up on various partner nations airframes (maybe USN C's too??).


In simple terms what I'm saying, the Super Hornets have proved to be a pretty good gap filler for the retired F-111C fleet, they should also provide capability insurance for the RAAF to maintain a credible anti-ship capability until the F-35A fleet has that capability too.

As much as I want to see the RAAF end up with a full 5th Gen capability with the fast jets, lets not be in too much of rush until we have all bases covered, and have all the capabilities that we currently have covered too.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water until we actually have to!

Cheers,
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
John Newman said:
Not wanting to pollute the RCAF thread with specific RAAF comments, I'll put this one here.



The question as when and how soon a decision is made to eventually proceed with the replacement of the Super Hornets with the 4th Squadron of F-35A is one thing, the more important question (to me anyway), is to ensure that when the Super Hornets leave RAAF service, that the F-35A fleet has the 'full' AShM capability that won't be available with Block 3F software.

As I understand it, JSM (for example) won't be available for use on the F-35A fleet until Block 4 software is available (and for specific users too), I think there are also 'other' versions of Block 4 in following years too, 4.1, 4,2, 4,3 and so on.

It does get a bit confusing, I've seen many charts of what will (and won't) be integrated with the various software 'block' releases, it appears to be a bit of a moving feast as to what weapon is in and out of the various releases, and what follows in the next release and so on, and for which version of the airframe too.


As it stands 'today', the RAAF Classic fleet has Harpoon (and JASSM) capability, the Super fleet has Harpoon and JSOW-C1 capabilities.

So whilst I'm all for the F-35A when it arrives, and what it will deliver, and as the various Block releases allow for more weapons to be integrated in the future, we will actually go 'backwards' for a while with the retirement of the Classic fleet in regard to AShM weapons.

And this is where (in my opinion), that we should keep the Super fleet in service, with their Harpoon and JSOW-C1 capability, at lease until the F-35A fleet has that capability too.

Where things also get a bit confusing, is that some weapons will be 'universal' across the F-35A, B and C fleets, there are some weapons that are specific to one version or the other, my understanding is that JSOW-C1 won't be a USAF weapon on the A model, but is a weapon on the USN C model (but I understand that we will carry it over from Super Hornet for RAAF use on our A models).

JSM for example is not likely to be integrated on USAF A's, but will end up on various partner nations airframes (maybe USN C's too??).


In simple terms what I'm saying, the Super Hornets have proved to be a pretty good gap filler for the retired F-111C fleet, they should also provide capability insurance for the RAAF to maintain a credible anti-ship capability until the F-35A fleet has that capability too.

As much as I want to see the RAAF end up with a full 5th Gen capability with the fast jets, lets not be in too much of rush until we have all bases covered, and have all the capabilities that we currently have covered too.

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water until we actually have to!

Cheers,
Click to expand...

Hi John

A good overview of some of the challenges.
Certainly it can be somewhat confusing all the options and stages as we transition to a new fast air fleet.
As far as deploying ASM off aircraft we once had many options with the Classic Hornets, F111's and Orion's.
This was a good mix and provided the NUMBERS in aircraft to deter any maritime aggressor around this large Island with its massive adjoining oceans.
The F35 is certainly the way forward but I do share with some trepidation the pace of acquiring a ASM for this aircraft.

I wonder if the old harpoon can be carried externally on the F35 until we find a modern alternative.( Yes not stealthy and not a clean airframe )

Thoughts

S
 
H

hairyman

Active Member
As I have just posted on the RAN site, I would have thought that the Norwegian NSM would have been the obvious choice for the RAAF,as it is meant to fit into the bay of the F#%, and it does have Australian content too.
 
S

SteveR

Active Member
hairyman said:
As I have just posted on the RAN site, I would have thought that the Norwegian NSM would have been the obvious choice for the RAAF,as it is meant to fit into the bay of the F#%, and it does have Australian content too.
Click to expand...
Actually we are buying the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) which is somewhat different from the NSM. JSM will have BAE Systems Australia ESM seeker but there has been no such announcement for that on the NSM. I believe the NSM has a French engine whereas the JSM has a US engine.
 
M

Milne Bay

Active Member
SteveR said:
Actually we are buying the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) which is somewhat different from the NSM. JSM will have BAE Systems Australia ESM seeker but there has been no such announcement for that on the NSM. I believe the NSM has a French engine whereas the JSM has a US engine.
Click to expand...
The JSM is a development of the NSM and this we are involved in funding. According to Wiki:


Joint Strike Missile

A multi-role version of the NSM is in development. This missile is called Joint Strike Missile (JSM) and will feature an option for ground strike and a two-way communications line, so that the missile can communicate with the central control room or other missiles in the air. This missile will be integrated with the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. Studies have shown that the F-35 would be able to carry two of these in its internal bays, while additional missiles could be carried externally.

According to Kongsberg, this "multi-role NSM" is the only powered anti-ship missile that will fit inside the F-35's internal bays.[25] Lockheed Martin and Kongsberg signed a joint-marketing agreement for this air-launched version of the NSM, as well as an agreement committing both parties to integrating the JSM on the F-35 platform.[26][27] The project is funded by Norway and Australia.[28] Kongsberg signed a contract for the first phase of development of the JSM in April, 2009, which is scheduled for completion within 18 months.[29] The JSM will have multicore computers running Integrity real-time operating system from Green Hills Software.[30]

Improved features for the Joint Strike Missile include:

Shape changed to fit in F-35 internal bay[31]
Ability to attack sea and land based targets
Aerial launch platform (F-35)
Improved range over NSM, estimates include 150 nmi (170 mi; 280 km)[31] to >100 nmi low-low-low or >300nmi hi-hi-low flight profiles[22]
Heavier 500 lb (230 kg) warhead[22]
Long-term, production start in 2013

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Strike_Missile

It clearly has advantages over the NSM and that is why it has been chosen
MB
 
H

hairyman

Active Member
I did not realize that the JSM was based on the NSM. Would we only buy them for the F35? Or would we use them on P8 and Super Hornet as well?
 
StingrayOZ

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
JSM isn't integrated on the P8 or Super hornet. Although Australia has done a clearance fit on the Super hornet. Australia also developed the radio seeker for the JSM/NSM.

The JSM is just the NSM repackaged. Same engine, same electronics, some minor differences for packaging and mission.They key elements are the same. NSM also has a rocket booster to launch it from the surface before the jet takes over.

I believe both feature the TRI-40 jet engine.

The NSM is also air launchable, from the MH-60. That capability is to do be operational sometimes around 2021.Submarine capability is 2026.

AFAIK Australia hasn't publicly committed to buying any JSM. But it is highly likely we will given our interest in its development. It would seem likely an announcement would be made after Block 4 of the JSF and the weapon is integrated. Currently Australia has no air platform that can (integrated and ready to go) fire the JSM.

I would imagine an announcement regarding the NSM would be made at that time.

IMO There is no rush to integrate the JSM on the P8. The P8 isn't stealthy, it carries a large number of missiles. While JSM would be useful, harpoon is likely to be suitable for that role for a number of years.
 
V

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe someone should be talking to the navy about the fit, finish and performance of Hobart before canning the people who built and delivered her, dispute the challenges of the then new and unique procurement model. These ships were ordered ten years ago under the Howard Government, started under Rudd, rebase-lined and reorganised under Gillard, then again under Abbott and are being now being delivered under Turnbull (who knows who will be PM when ship three commissions) and somehow the problems of several years ago are the fault of those who work at ASC now.......
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
SteveR said:
Actually we are buying the Joint Strike Missile (JSM) which is somewhat different from the NSM. JSM will have BAE Systems Australia ESM seeker but there has been no such announcement for that on the NSM. I believe the NSM has a French engine whereas the JSM has a US engine.
Click to expand...
Nothing has been chosen. The Defence White Paper 2016 - Integrated Investment Program, listed the Air Combat Capability - Maritime Strike Weapons project as not even commencing until 2018... I doubt it has even passed it's first gateway yet...
 
R

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Volkodav said:
Maybe someone should be talking to the navy about the fit, finish and performance of Hobart before canning the people who built and delivered her, dispute the challenges of the then new and unique procurement model. These ships were ordered ten years ago under the Howard Government, started under Rudd, rebase-lined and reorganised under Gillard, then again under Abbott and are being now being delivered under Turnbull (who knows who will be PM when ship three commissions) and somehow the problems of several years ago are the fault of those who work at ASC now.......
Click to expand...
Sorry Volk my post wasn't meant to be an attack on the build quality of the AWD just how differently the Government is running the 2 programs, one program an Alliance where the proncipal Ship designer is only a Sub contractor and the other where the Ship Designer will run the show. The Canoe bit is more an off hand remark aimed at the then Defmin.
 
S

SteveR

Active Member
ADMk2 said:
Nothing has been chosen. The Defence White Paper 2016 - Integrated Investment Program, listed the Air Combat Capability - Maritime Strike Weapons project as not even commencing until 2018... I doubt it has even passed it's first gateway yet...
Click to expand...
Thanks - I stand corrected. However Australia has invested in the integration of JSM on the F35 and Pyne has certainly been seen standing next to a JSM mockup at the last Avalon.
 
S

SteveR

Active Member
StingrayOZ said:
The JSM is just the NSM repackaged. Same engine, same electronics, some minor differences for packaging and mission.They key elements are the same. NSM also has a rocket booster to launch it from the surface before the jet takes over.

I believe both feature the TRI-40 jet engine.
Click to expand...
Janes IDR Dec 14 report on JSM says that the NSM TR!-40 was replaced by a Williams WJ38-7K on the JSM partly because the JSM fuselage had to be narrowed to fit the F35 bombay and partly to attract US interest in selecting it for the F35A and F35C.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
SteveR said:
Thanks - I stand corrected. However Australia has invested in the integration of JSM on the F35 and Pyne has certainly been seen standing next to a JSM mockup at the last Avalon.
Click to expand...
Yep, it seems a pretty sure thing for the RAAF particularly in relation to the F-35 and perhaps the P-8A, but nothing has been decided yet and there are other options that may come into play, particularly JASSM / LRASM of which we have a relatively large inventory of AGM-158A JASSM missiles and nothing besides the soon to be retired legacy Hornets to carry and launch them from...
 
H

hairyman

Active Member
Is the RAAF going the way of the Predator, or are we going to consider the Heron from Israel, which has some Australian content and could be part manufactured here?
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
old faithful said:
This is an interesting capability, wonder if the RAAF has or intends acquire a similar weapon?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DjUdVxJH6yI
Click to expand...
I expect so. With the emphasis shifting to ‘penetrating’ capability I expect something like this will make it’s way into the RAAF Orbat sooner rather than later along with systems such as MALD-J which I can see being an excellent adjunct to our Growler capability...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top