Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[Trackmaster]

IIRC the CBR was something which was different/distinct from the HUG programme. The HUG programme itself being the Hornet Up Grade programme... Again IIRC every 'Classic' Hornet went through it, to become known as a HUG Bug, amongst the major components of the HUG were significant upgrades to the Hornet-A/B avionics packages, including replacing the APG-65 radar with the APG-73 radar used in Hornet-C/D's and Block 1 SHornets.

-Cheers

The Fin Review has just posted a story saying the Defence Minister will tomorrow announce he has directed the Department to determine the costings for the purchase of an additional 24 Super Hornets.
The story gives continuing delays with the JSF as the reason.
Big announcements coming up before the election. 24 more Supers and another Air Warfare Destroyer.

 

[hauritz]

The Fin Review has just posted a story saying the Defence Minister will tomorrow announce he has directed the Department to determine the costings for the purchase of an additional 24 Super Hornets.
The story gives continuing delays with the JSF as the reason.
Big announcements coming up before the election. 24 more Supers and another Air Warfare Destroyer.

Seems to be a conflict here ... on one hand they are saying that the existing classic hornet could last until the F-35 is ready and on the other they are planning the purchase a second batch of SHs.

The cynic in me is wondering if this hasn't got more to do with the rising cost of the F-35 rather than any concerns that the classic hornet fleet is falling apart.

Don't be surprised if the RAAF ends up only getting a single squadron of F-35s at the end of all this.

 

[OpinionNoted]

Seems to be a conflict here ... on one hand they are saying that the existing classic hornet could last until the F-35 is ready and on the other they are planning the purchase a second batch of SHs.

The cynic in me is wondering if this hasn't got more to do with the rising cost of the F-35 rather than any concerns that the classic hornet fleet is falling apart.

Don't be surprised if the RAAF ends up only getting a single squadron of F-35s at the end of all this.

Or if an additional 24 supers are bought,then we may never see any F35's aquired.Keeping inline with the single fleet cost efficencies dogma...may be a way out of the F35 programme altogether.

 

[hauritz]

Or if an additional 24 supers are bought,then we may never see any F35's aquired.Keeping inline with the single fleet cost efficencies dogma...may be a way out of the F35 programme altogether.

True ... they could indeed argue that the Superhornet plus Growlers could give the RAAF sufficient capability and of course cite all of the advantages of a single airframe to kill off the F-35 program completely.

 

[ADMk2]

Or if an additional 24 supers are bought,then we may never see any F35's aquired.Keeping inline with the single fleet cost efficencies dogma...may be a way out of the F35 programme altogether.

Unlikely. What "may" occur is a larger Super Hornet fleet with an F-35 "silver bullet" force, but I find it highly unlikely we'll get out of F-35 altogether.

If we do, our Government has gone completely nuts and lost the plot. Super Hornet isn't sufficient to provide our air combat needs for the next 30 years by itself and ADF should be leaking that like a sieve to the press and the Minister and the Government's desires be damned.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Don't be surprised if the RAAF ends up only getting a single squadron of F-35s at the end of all this.

Sorry, thats just rubbish.

Overall force developmen t around JSF is critical in future force constructs - there are a whole pile of other progs which take advantage of JSF capability

Shornets and Growlers cannot even begin to remotely fill that particular force integration req.

 

[Milne Bay]

The first of the RAAF's F-35's is building at the moment. I wonder if the government has re-considered how many Growlers will be sufficient. An increase over 6 would go some way to explaining why extra super hornets are being considered. Still, it is a puzzling announcement.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The first of the RAAF's F-35's is building at the moment. I wonder if the government has re-considered how many Growlers will be sufficient. An increase over 6 would go some way to explaining why extra super hornets are being considered. Still, it is a puzzling announcement.

A little reality check is needed
Govt and RAAF are trying to avoid a multi-type pointy platform construct
If more aircraft are bought in then it will kill some critical capability and development budgets - and none of the services want that - this is not just a service issue
getting more growlers would mean some more permanent doctrine changes - and the doctrine development is around wedgetail and P8's with JSF - not Growlers

all the govt is doing is keeping options open - this dribble thats hitting the net about AustGovt committment to JSF is just enthusiastic journalism - perhaps if they bothered to ask or look at the force development models they'd have a bit more of a clue.

Growlers have already impacted on RAAFs budget - and they won't want to kill odd anything else and jeopardise the current models

the focus on JSF in resource committment and future planning dwarfs similar reqs on Shornets/Growlers.

 

[Milne Bay]

A little reality check is needed
Govt and RAAF are trying to avoid a multi-type pointy platform construct
If more aircraft are bought in then it will kill some critical capability and development budgets - and none of the services want that - this is not just a service issue
getting more growlers would mean some more permanent doctrine changes - and the doctrine development is around wedgetail and P8's with JSF - not Growlers

all the govt is doing is keeping options open - this dribble thats hitting the net about AustGovt committment to JSF is just enthusiastic journalism - perhaps if they bothered to ask or look at the force development models they'd have a bit more of a clue.

Growlers have already impacted on RAAFs budget - and they won't want to kill odd anything else and jeopardise the current models

the focus on JSF in resource committment and future planning dwarfs similar reqs on Shornets/Growlers.

I understand this - just trying to put a reason on any possible increase in super hornets.
It will be interesting to hear any rationale behind any announcement - if and when it is made,

 

[hauritz]

Sorry, thats just rubbish.

Overall force developmen t around JSF is critical in future force constructs - there are a whole pile of other progs which take advantage of JSF capability

Shornets and Growlers cannot even begin to remotely fill that particular force integration req.

Perhaps ... but the minimum requirement for the F-35 could be as few as 72 aircraft. If we already have 48 SHs then the possibility exists that as few as 24 silver bullets will be sought.

As a side note.


If more SHs are purchased would it not be simpler and perhaps cheaper to buy new build growlers rather than upgrade existing aircraft?

 

[hairyman]

I can understand why we might want to order additional Super Hornets, but why 24? Surely our squadrons do not require 24 aircraft each?

 

[VerySneaky]

Assuming the decision to purchase another 24 Rhinos is made next year, what sort of delivery date are we looking at? At this stage I'd have thought it would almost just be worth waiting it out.

The article in The Australian states:

The JSF program, the largest US defence project of its kind, has been plagued by cost overruns and delays, ramping up the cost of the planes well above initial Australian estimates.

Is this just a reference to previous cost overruns? I was under the impression that the F-35 program had exceeded the budgeted test points for 2012 and was steadily addressing the major issues such as the HMD? or is it not as rosy as is portrayed by LM?

Cheers

VS

 

[SpudmanWP]

From order to delivery is three years, same for F-35.

The biggest reason for LRIP cost increases was the US's decision to back away from the concurrency plans. Since many Partner nations were planning to start buying in the mid-late LRIP stage it has hit them disproportionally higher than the US which plans on buying thru the 2030's.

 

[John Newman]

A little reality check is needed
Govt and RAAF are trying to avoid a multi-type pointy platform construct
If more aircraft are bought in then it will kill some critical capability and development budgets - and none of the services want that - this is not just a service issue
getting more growlers would mean some more permanent doctrine changes - and the doctrine development is around wedgetail and P8's with JSF - not Growlers

all the govt is doing is keeping options open - this dribble thats hitting the net about AustGovt committment to JSF is just enthusiastic journalism - perhaps if they bothered to ask or look at the force development models they'd have a bit more of a clue.

Growlers have already impacted on RAAFs budget - and they won't want to kill odd anything else and jeopardise the current models

the focus on JSF in resource committment and future planning dwarfs similar reqs on Shornets/Growlers.

Here's the link to the Fin Review article:

Smith ponders Hornet options for RAAF

I agree with what GF said, a reality check is needed.

Until Def Min Smith actually makes the announcement, we don't know exactly what is going to happen.

But if some of the AFR article is basically true, its reaffirming what Smith said earlier this year, and that was, by the end of this year he was going to make an announcement of what options the Goverment "might" take so not to allow a capability gap to occur.

The AFR article states that we are going to obtain costings on 24 Shornets, but also that a decision won't be made till around mid 2013.

We've had the Audit Office report a little while ago that stated the Classic fleet should make it to 2020, from memory it said that the aircraft should make it to their 6000hr flight time, but yes there were issues with fatigue and corrosion, I'm sure the RAAF is on top of all that.

From all that I've read the F35's seem to be making steady progress in all the test points this year.

So unless something big occurs in the next 6th months, eg, further major delays, some major technical issue, the US military is force to reduce is buy if the US Defence budget is automatically cut because of the deadlock in Congress which causes a sharp increase in price or if a major issue with the Classic fleet develops.

If anything, the biggest threat to the F35 that I see, is if our Defence budget receives deeper and longer lasting cuts that make it more difficult to spend the amount of dollars needed.

Anyway, just have to wait and see what Smith announces!

 

[gf0012-aust]

any major changes will come at Avalon

 

[ADMk2]

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel – Joint Media Release – Australia’s future Air Capability

The Government has directed Defence to investigate the acquisition of a further 24 Super Hornet fighters. More consideration to the idea will be given in 2013, once the Letter of Request has been answered, which I imagine we'll see on DSCA soon enough...

Avalon sounds a likely proposition to me too...

 

[Trackmaster]

Assuming the decision to purchase another 24 Rhinos is made next year, what sort of delivery date are we looking at? At this stage I'd have thought it would almost just be worth waiting it out.

The article in The Australian states:



Is this just a reference to previous cost overruns? I was under the impression that the F-35 program had exceeded the budgeted test points for 2012 and was steadily addressing the major issues such as the HMD? or is it not as rosy as is portrayed by LM?

Cheers

VS

And if we assume the order goes through....would there be single seaters in the mix and would the entire fleet be based at Amberley?

How much more concrete can they lay on the runway surrounds?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Defence Ministers » Minister for Defence and Minister for Defence Materiel – Joint Media Release – Australia’s future Air Capability

The Government has directed Defence to investigate the acquisition of a further 24 Super Hornet fighters. More consideration to the idea will be given in 2013, once the Letter of Request has been answered, which I imagine we'll see on DSCA soon enough...

Avalon sounds a likely proposition to me too...

Going for another 24 is going to cause a major funding headache - esp if they acquire

A whole pile of stuff is going to have to be rewritten

 

[Todjaeger]

Going for another 24 is going to cause a major funding headache - esp if they acquire

A whole pile of stuff is going to have to be rewritten

Not to mention what would be the actual delivery time...

It strikes me that some journos seem to forget that the current RAAF SHornets were acquired so quickly because the USN opted to let the RAAF jump ahead of existing USN SHornet build slots. If the whole idea is to purchase additional supers because there is a critical issue with the HUG Bugs which will not last until JSF deliveries commence... The SHornet deliverys would likely not come any faster either.

At present, several scenarios come to mind.

Gov't could be annoucing looking into getting additional SHornets, to give the appearance that they are doing something about Defence, aside from just cutting funding to achieve a surplus.

Gov't planners could be looking into more SHornets, without input from Defence planners on the impact more SHornets would have on force structure.

Gov't could be looking to purchase more SHornets, to effectively sidetrack any sort of future force constructs which have been planned for, and causing Defence-related problems for any new incoming Gov't, while making things look like the outgoing Gov't was strong/active on Defence.

I would not have an issue with the RAAF getting an additional 24 SHornets, particularly if half of them were rigged for Growler ops or conversion, provided that the funding for the extra F/A-18's did not come at the expense of any current, or existing programmes.

Unfort so far it appears that the current Gov't is not interested in spending money on things Defence wants, but on what will make Gov't look good, even if the price is far more than the capability warrants.

-Cheers

 

[gf0012-aust]

Unfort so far it appears that the current Gov't is not interested in spending money on things Defence wants, but on what will make Gov't look good, even if the price is far more than the capability warrants.

-Cheers

Never ceases to amaze me that journos in australia have missed some of the recent decisions and just let them slide past the keeper....

The USN has gone out of its way to assist RAAF with this first tranche, unfort, they are not going to be in a position to keep up that level of commitment

If Govt is going to acquire another squadron, then there is going to be some flow on impact across all the services, and I suspect that Svce goodwill may become challenged. Esp Army

We just can't go and get another Sqdn under the same circumstances as prev.

I can see a whole pile of other projects being put at risk, and quite frankly we need them more than we do another sqdn of SHornets