Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

Lopex

New Member
RAF Operational Update??

Having looked back at most of the released updates since the GR4 took over from the GR9 the only weapon fired seems to be the 27mm Mauser cannon. This was one of two stafing runs against an enemy firing at allied troops. Not one single bomb or missile ?

But what is a show of force? It is different than a show of presence. Is a show of force to surpress an enemy another way of saying we dropped a 500lb Paveway IV on the enemy?

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
A show of force is done by flying low and fast over enemy positions. Add some flares to this and it might very well scare the enemy away or at least make him think about the vulnerability of his position anf force him to maneuver in order not to get a LGB onto his head.

The suspected decline in heavy CAS missions might be a result of the new US/ISAF agenda which is heavily enforced by General McChrystal.
Less bombs is the motto of the day...
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Having looked back at most of the released updates since the GR4 took over from the GR9 the only weapon fired seems to be the 27mm Mauser cannon. This was one of two stafing runs against an enemy firing at allied troops. Not one single bomb or missile ?

But what is a show of force? It is different than a show of presence. Is a show of force to surpress an enemy another way of saying we dropped a 500lb Paveway IV on the enemy?

Hopefully someone can clear this up for me.
They've used at least one brimstone as I understand it, most likely more then that though.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
They've used at least one brimstone as I understand it, most likely more then that though.
I also believe the change in doctrine is partly due to the increase in troops on the ground in Helmand. The FOB's are under less pressure allowing for more aggressive fighting and standing patrols to push out the ink spot. Troops are relying less on CAS and more on their own indigenous firepower (60mm mortars and Javelins) and that provided by the dispersed 105mm's and 81mm mortars. Recent own goals in the hearts and minds campaign have also forced a rethink, nothing worse than seeing dead civi's on TV as a result of a stray 500 pounder.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I also believe the change in doctrine is partly due to the increase in troops on the ground in Helmand. The FOB's are under less pressure allowing for more aggressive fighting and standing patrols to push out the ink spot. Troops are relying less on CAS and more on their own indigenous firepower (60mm mortars and Javelins) and that provided by the dispersed 105mm's and 81mm mortars. Recent own goals in the hearts and minds campaign have also forced a rethink, nothing worse than seeing dead civi's on TV as a result of a stray 500 pounder.
Definately, the addition of the Marine Expeditionary Brigade effectively doubled the firepower of the forces in the province (added a second brigade group) and the extra rotory winged support that the marines brought with them has made the brigades more flexible in deployment and has given more options for offensive operations then would otherwise exist.
 

kev 99

Member
They've used at least one brimstone as I understand it, most likely more then that though.
Definitely have:
A Taliban fighter was killed by an RAF Top Gun who fired a missile through a hole the size of a grapefruit.

The Harrier jump jet ace spotted the sniper waiting to kill Our Boys from thousands of feet up over Afghanistan.

The insurgent had planned to take out troops as they entered the compound from a tiny "murder hole" in the wall.

But after fixing his cross-hair on the gap the soldier had made, the RAF hero unleashed the new Dual Mode Brimstone Missile with devastating accuracy.

This is the first operational use of the radar-guided supersonic speed weapon.

Three of the 1.8 metre long missiles - which can hit static or moving targets - can be carried by the Harrier GR9 and the Tornado GR4.

Tornado Force Commander Gp Capt Colin Basnett said the "incredibly precise" Brimstone is a vital tool.

He added: "It's significantly increased the capability of Tornado Force to strike targets."
This story was posted on the MOD website on 26th September so it's quite possible more have been used since then.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The following report claims the UK will rush through the purchase of 30 odd Chinooks, bringing the entire fleet to 70 in number. Knock on result being the future medium lift '2020 vision' purchase will be cancelled. Merlins will all be marinised (no doubt to replace the aging SeaKings) thus giving 3-Commando a much more versatile platform (increased carrying capacity and rear ramp) leaving the Joint Helicopter Force with four models - FutureLynx, Merlin, Chinook and Apache.

Afghanistan helicopter shortage: government to buy 30 Chinooks - Telegraph

Pretty sensible option IMHO, Chinnok brings so much to the table - range, speed and capacity. Merlin and FutureLynx will provide the smaller platform option if and when required.

The following Quote made me laugh though: "But some military commentators believe that the move ahead of the general election might be good politically but is “stupid” tactically as it could make a platoon of 30 soldiers in a single helicopter more vulnerable to ground fire than spread among three helicopters." .

The Chinook represents the primary workhouse in A-Stan, plus the financial and manning burden of training 3 x crews (Merlin say), when 1 x crew (Chinook) will suffice to carry the same number is a no brainer.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The following report claims the UK will rush through the purchase of 30 odd Chinooks, bringing the entire fleet to 70 in number. Knock on result being the future medium lift '2020 vision' purchase will be cancelled. Merlins will all be marinised (no doubt to replace the aging SeaKings) thus giving 3-Commando a much more versatile platform (increased carrying capacity and rear ramp) leaving the Joint Helicopter Force with four models - FutureLynx, Merlin, Chinook and Apache.

Pretty sensible option IMHO, Chinnok brings so much to the table - range, speed and capacity. Merlin and FutureLynx will provide the smaller platform option if and when required.
I'm rather worried that this would leave the army & navy with a very top-heavy mix. If the future medium lift purchase is to be cancelled in favour of more Chinook, I think it should be accompanied by more AW159.
 

kev 99

Member
I'm rather worried that this would leave the army & navy with a very top-heavy mix. If the future medium lift purchase is to be cancelled in favour of more Chinook, I think it should be accompanied by more AW159.
No argument with that here, but I've always thought the RN's share of the purchase was small anyway, but we don't really know how this will affect the force structure at all yet, one report suggests that the RAF Merlins will be 'marinised', maybe the RN get these to replace their Seakings, but then what happens to the Pumas?
 

riksavage

Banned Member
No argument with that here, but I've always thought the RN's share of the purchase was small anyway, but we don't really know how this will affect the force structure at all yet, one report suggests that the RAF Merlins will be 'marinised', maybe the RN get these to replace their Seakings, but then what happens to the Pumas?
With money being tight, the Chinook represents the best compromise 'bang for buck' option, particularly if Osprey is ruled out. Range, load carrying capacity and speed is outstanding. It already forms the backbone of the SF rotary flight and is deemed absolutely essential for long-range missions requiring the insertion of troops, kit and wheeled vehicles. The UK has already zero-houred older versions to extend their life-span, the knowledge and infrastructure is already in place to absorb more units so to me it would make complete sense. Plus cost savings will be made by reducing the need to absorb a brand-new airframe training programme.

The AW149 has been pushed before as a cheap solution, though smaller than the Merlin and larger than the Wildcat (AW159), it does not offer a capability jump or fill a much needed requirement gap, it certainly doesn't compare with what an extra couple of Chinook sqn's brings to the table. Wildcat will also take up the liaison / armed-recce role currently enjoyed by army Lynx/Gazelle's to compliment the Apache, thus negating the need for a AW149 sized airframe or more AW159's.

Puma currently forms the backbone of the RAF'S battlefield taxis. I'm sure battlegroup commanders would much prefer to have the added capability of Chinook on call, after all Pumas can't lift vehicles, 105mm's + ammo, sustain a full trauma medical team and still have room for casualties.

The current Chinook crew of three operates a machine, which carries so much more than a medium lift helo, so adding capacity without increasing crew numbers with all associated knock-on financial implications makes sense. Merlin can provide the much needed support for RM operations, it has a much greater capacity than the SeaKing, Blackhawk (being forced to crouch down is right royal pain) or NH90 and comes with a very useful rear-ramp.

The new QE class lifts will be large enough to take the Chinook (QE could host 25 according to press reports?), and I'm sure any Ocean replacement will do the same. I'm also convinced the UK will be smart enough to specify folding rotors as they did with Apache (the only nation operating the machine to do so thus far).
 
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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Riksvage,

I would hardly call Puma's the backbone of the RAF's transport fleet. They have exactly 1 more Puma then they do of Merlins, and giving a lot less lift then the Merlins. They have 17 less Puma's in operation then they do Chinooks at the moment.

Hopefully the RAF AAC and FAA will end up with a fleet consisting of:
1) Apache
2) Wildcat
3) Merlin
4) Chinook
5) [Insert Training Helicopter Here]
 

kev 99

Member
Riksvage,

I would hardly call Puma's the backbone of the RAF's transport fleet. They have exactly 1 more Puma then they do of Merlins, and giving a lot less lift then the Merlins. They have 17 less Puma's in operation then they do Chinooks at the moment.

Hopefully the RAF AAC and FAA will end up with a fleet consisting of:
1) Apache
2) Wildcat
3) Merlin
4) Chinook
5) [Insert Training Helicopter Here]
That's what I would like to see but it would require more Wildcats and Merlins even with this speculated Chinook order.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Riksvage,

I would hardly call Puma's the backbone of the RAF's transport fleet. They have exactly 1 more Puma then they do of Merlins, and giving a lot less lift then the Merlins. They have 17 less Puma's in operation then they do Chinooks at the moment.

Hopefully the RAF AAC and FAA will end up with a fleet consisting of:
1) Apache
2) Wildcat
3) Merlin
4) Chinook
5) [Insert Training Helicopter Here]
Will revise - Puma represents the backbone of much of the militaries UK training/home base requirements. With Merlin being considered the best operational medium lift platform (hot & high capability and numbers of troops carried) for A-Stan, Pumas will (poor hot and high capabilities) remain in the UK supporting land forces and pre-deployment training.

Pumas should be phased out and replaced by the new batch of Chinook, or a mix of Chinook and Merlin. With the arrival of Wildcat, and the fact that the UK operates the most powerful Apache version, the hot and high issues should no longer be an issue.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
More C17's for the RAF

Britain In Talks With Boeing For Another C-17 - Defense News

Britain In Talks With Boeing For Another C-17
By andrew chuter
Published: 27 Nov 2009 07:48
Print Print | Print Email

Britain is negotiating the purchase of another Boeing C-17 airlifter to boost the Royal Air Force's ability to supply troops fighting the Taliban in southern Afghanistan. If the procurement gets the go-ahead, the Ministry of Defence here said it hopes to complete contract negotiations by the end of the year.

Approval of the purchase would see the RAF's fleet of C-17s grow to seven aircraft. An MoD spokesman confirmed negotiations were underway but said no deal had yet been done to acquire the aircraft.
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"The U.K. has engaged in exploratory discussions with the U.S. Air Force and Boeing regarding the feasibility of procuring a seventh C-17 aircraft for the U.K. No commitments have been made, and no decisions have been taken," he said.

"If the department decides to purchase a new C-17, then we plan to be on contract with Boeing by the end of December 2009, with a view to delivery in December 2010 and an in-service date of March 2011," said the spokesman.

The rapid in-service date suggests the British will be given an early delivery slot earmarked for the U.S. Air Force.

The C-17 has been the backbone of an RAF's airbridge operation, which has been severely stretched supporting Britain's growing military presence in Afghanistan.

The British have been operating C-17s since 2001, when they leased four aircraft. The airlifters were eventually purchased by the RAF and the fleet has grown to the point where the British took delivery of two aircraft last year and are now poised to acquire their seventh aircraft, subject to final government approval.

Analysts think the RAF has hopes to acquire at least one more aircraft before the Boeing C-17 production line closes. Funding is likely to be an issue for the cash-strapped MoD.

The MoD here is estimating line closure in 2011. However, a Boeing spokesman said there was currently no cut-off point and the production line was good until at least 2012.

A Boeing spokesman in the U.S. declined to discuss the possible deal with the British beyond saying, "We continue to see strong international interest in C-17s. Our customers, however, prefer to announce their intentions on their own timetable. The question is best addressed by the U.K.'s MoD."

The British said the purchase of the additional aircraft was not directly connected with delays to the Airbus A400M airlifter program.

"A400M is the replacement capability for the Hercules C-130K tactical transporter. We have looked carefully at the intra-theater operational requirement after the C130-K goes out of service in 2012. Although a C-17 can be employed in a tactical role and will help to mitigate against operational losses of C-130J, analysis suggests that the current fleet of 24 C-130J can sustain anticipated intra-theatre airlift tasking on current operations until A400M comes into service."

The first flight of the A400M is expected in the next few days. The partner nations in the program are still trying to hammer out a deal with Airbus parent EADS on the revised timing and cost of the program, which is currently three years late and hugely over cost.

French media earlier this month said Britain is expected to cut the number of aircraft it will buy from 25 to 19 aircraft in order to stay within funding availability. One British industry executive said earlier this week he thought the number the RAF get could be even less.

Asked if the C-17 buy could have an impact on A400M numbers, the spokesman said, "We keep our operational requirements under constant review, and we will look hard at the implications of the acquisition of any enduring capability. We continue to work with OCCAR [the European program office] and partner nations to find a way forward on the A400M program. It would be inappropriate to comment on these discussions at this time," he said.

Haven't seen this up anywhere else presume this the first post on this seems the inevitable happing of a fleet of 8+ aircraft as envisaged.
All in all good news also in the article of interstest is the believe that the UK will cut the A-400 order
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
I would like to get the expert's opinons on the recent US decision to not share the F-35 source code with the UK -- personally I am not very surprised by this, I am actually surprised that it seems that the US accepted to enter an agreement some time ago to share the F-35 source code with the UK.

I am also surprised that the UK actually believed they would get the source code -- contributing just a tiny bit of the total development budget.

So, will this have a significant impact? Pulling out of the collaboration is simply too late for the UK now -- and I guess this was not a legally binding agreement in the first place so I cannot see that UK can do anything about it.

For the UK I guess it simply means that they will have to do like all the other F-35 partners; work with LM to do the weapons integration, upgrades, etc.
 

kev 99

Member
I would like to get the expert's opinons on the recent US decision to not share the F-35 source code with the UK -- personally I am not very surprised by this, I am actually surprised that it seems that the US accepted to enter an agreement some time ago to share the F-35 source code with the UK.

I am also surprised that the UK actually believed they would get the source code -- contributing just a tiny bit of the total development budget.
Tiny bit?

Look up the proportion of development money the UK has stumped up and the proportion of the planned total that they are expected to buy, still sound like a tiny amount?
 
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