Yep, for Airbus. Although the article did not state which C-130s, i presume they meant the older C1,2&3 variants. As their continued use is down to A-400 delays, if there are more delays, I see Airbus losing the contract and Britain runing back to the US for more C-130's or C17's.
Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter Jambo_100
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Naah. The RAF would just ask for, and get, the extra couple of C-17s it wants anyway, to tide it over until the A400M start arriving. Cancelling the A400M order would probably cost the RAF money, but it gets compensation from Airbus for delays.
Super Nimrod
New Member
Agree with Swerve, various sources have suggested that they wanted 8 C-17's all along so they would order a couple more to fill the gap. They are proving so useful I don't see them selling them once the A400 gets into service either.
Originally, they were stop gaps. However the need to have more (in the 8-12 region) came about because they proved their usefulnes and the RAF and MOD saw it as an opportunity to replace a long lost capability by buying the at the end of the lease regardless of the A-400's progress. If they were going to dispose of them when the A-400 came on line, they would have just continued the lease rather than buy them.
Agreed, entirely. I see now that when I said "tide it over", it could have been interpreted as a temporary acquisition, but that isn't what I meant.
Can someone clarify the UK Predator and Reaper procurement for me, please?
How many Reapers and Predators does the RAF operate and are they actual property of the RAF? I can't tell whether the RAF purchased the UAVs or are just operating US owned UAVs.
Wasn't the Nimrod R.1 supposed to be undergoing an upgrade program called "Project Helix"? I heard that the Nimrod R.1 was supposed to be an excellent asset that was superior in some ways to US equivalent (RC-135s if i'm right). I don't understand why the MoD hasn't decided remanufacture the R.1s in a parellel program to the MRA4. It makes no sense to update the R.1 if the airframe is coming to the end of its days.
I also wonder what will fill the boots of the now retired Canberra PR9. IMINT has lately been carried out by the Nimrod MR2 but what about the future when the smaller MRA4 fleet will no doubt be tied up with Maritime survelience commitments?
I wonder if the Predator and Reaper are essentially going to be seen as a replacement to the Canberra or whether the UK may look into buying Global Hawks. I also wonder whether the UK may decide to go a for something developed from the CORAX with a large wing as a Canberra replacement and alternative to the Global Hawk.
How many Reapers and Predators does the RAF operate and are they actual property of the RAF? I can't tell whether the RAF purchased the UAVs or are just operating US owned UAVs.
Wasn't the Nimrod R.1 supposed to be undergoing an upgrade program called "Project Helix"? I heard that the Nimrod R.1 was supposed to be an excellent asset that was superior in some ways to US equivalent (RC-135s if i'm right). I don't understand why the MoD hasn't decided remanufacture the R.1s in a parellel program to the MRA4. It makes no sense to update the R.1 if the airframe is coming to the end of its days.
I also wonder what will fill the boots of the now retired Canberra PR9. IMINT has lately been carried out by the Nimrod MR2 but what about the future when the smaller MRA4 fleet will no doubt be tied up with Maritime survelience commitments?
I wonder if the Predator and Reaper are essentially going to be seen as a replacement to the Canberra or whether the UK may look into buying Global Hawks. I also wonder whether the UK may decide to go a for something developed from the CORAX with a large wing as a Canberra replacement and alternative to the Global Hawk.
The Predators will be owned by the RAF. As to where the personal will be based, I have no idea.
Originally we bought 3 Predators, and 1 Crashed, and we have requested 10 more to buy. Providing no more crash we will have 12 based on current orders (unless we buy a replacement for the crashed one).
Originally we bought 3 Predators, and 1 Crashed, and we have requested 10 more to buy. Providing no more crash we will have 12 based on current orders (unless we buy a replacement for the crashed one).
Yes, but AFAIK that's purely a systems upgrade. Given the state of the airframes, it would appear to make sense to add a few MRA4 airframes to the build programme & install the kit from the Helix upgraded R.1s, but I fear it will fall foul of funding.
Super Nimrod
New Member
From what I have read it is still the intention to upgrade the R1's eventually, but they are at the end of the queue until all the MRA4's are done. However, the UK government may also have half an eye on the progress of UAV technology to see it the really do need a manned platform rather than a stealthy unmanned one with remote sensors. Regardless a decision is probably 8-10 years away so don't bet on anything soon, indeed don't bet on any announcement at all as it will all be done in secret just like the original development of the R1
The problem when asking about the R1 is that large parts of it are secret due to the jobs that it is expected to do. What I do know from a source within the RAF is that the Airframes will be replaced, not tagged on to the end of the MRA4 program, but what they replace it I have no idea (apart from those reports on the Joint Rivet lease thing). You will hear very little about the systems they use onboard any replacement either.
I think we will have a better idea of what to expect when the MoD's planning round 08 is done. Since funding from the comprehensive spending review has been released earlier to enable the procurement of the new Royal Navy carriers, it remains unclear what effect this will have on other equipment programmes. (Future Lynx, Typhoon, Nimrod R.1 replacement etc.) It is clear however, that something will have to go.
Hopefully the MoD will realise the importance of having an independant ISTAR capability and will somehow make it happen.
On a different subject.. it's going to be really interesting seeing what the RAF decides to do about its combat forces Afghanistan.
Some reports say they are concidering a joint Tornado GR.4\Typhoon FGR.4 deployment to replace Joint Force Harrier in theatre, using Typhoons as bomb trucks, with the Tornado's 'spiking' targets for them.
Hopefully the MoD will realise the importance of having an independant ISTAR capability and will somehow make it happen.
On a different subject.. it's going to be really interesting seeing what the RAF decides to do about its combat forces Afghanistan.
Some reports say they are concidering a joint Tornado GR.4\Typhoon FGR.4 deployment to replace Joint Force Harrier in theatre, using Typhoons as bomb trucks, with the Tornado's 'spiking' targets for them.
according to DID the FLynx is entering full scale production http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/britains-billionpound-future-lynx-helicopter-program-02384/
'The latest developments include the beginning of full airframe production, following a successful design-to-cost program that had better than expected result' so the FLynx is safe
windscorpion
New Member
Thats excellent news, the reports earlier in the year about FutureLynx possibly being for the chop were very worrying considering it's potential.
A couple of 'good news' milestones have just been reached, which brings or will bring much improved capabilities to the RAF, firstly the UK Reaper UAV used its weapons system for the first time in A-Stan rather than restricting activity to purely surveillance operations, and secondly Typhoons from XI Squadron dropped Paveway 2 munitions and fired their cannons during exercise Green Flag in the US resulting in them being declared combat ready for the target date of 1 July 2008. Thank god the UK finally fronted-up and purchased ammo for the cannons!!!!
Lets Hope the GR9's can now be replaced in A-Stan and be seen gracing the decks of the carriers once more. Hopefully more Reapers will also be purchased on a UOR basis, another eight at least.
Lets Hope the GR9's can now be replaced in A-Stan and be seen gracing the decks of the carriers once more. Hopefully more Reapers will also be purchased on a UOR basis, another eight at least.
although GR-9 are much better supporting troops in A-Stan than looking good on ships [whats the point in having a capability which your not going to use it]. would be nice to see the Tiffy in A-Stan
Trouble with that is that they're rapidly using up airframe hours, on a very small fleet. We risk not having enough serviceable GR9s if we ever do need them on the carriers.
Meanwhile, it's hard to see what most of the Tornado fleet is doing. Looking good on airbases in the UK?
Yes, I believe we'll see Tornado GR.4 and Typhoon FGR.4 sharing Afghanistan duties before long..
swerve do you know if there are any issues with Tornado fleet which means that it hasn't been used in A-Stan [im talking about the UK fleet as the German Recon planes are there] because despite its more expensive maeitience compared with the harrier i think its a better for A-Stan
I thought there were Tornados in Iraq still
The Tornado GR.4 is not a CAS aircraft. Even though it may carry Brimstone, it's not particularly suited to the mission.
The strike mission in Afghanistan is already sufficiently handled, CAS aircraft are also needed however. The only other fixed-wing CAS aircraft in Afghanistan currently are the (8-10?) A-10 of the USAF 455th AEW operating from Bagram.
Strike aircraft:
- USAF: about 10-12 F-15E, Bagram
- AdA: 3 SEM + 3 Mirage 2000D, Kandahar
- KLu: 8 F-16MLU, Kandahar (?)
edit: no Norwegian F-16 after all - last in 2006
Recon and EW aircraft:
- USN: about 4 EA-6B + 1 EC-130H, Bagram
- Lw: 6 Tornado IDS/Recce, Mazar-i-Sharif
- AdA: 3 Mirage F1CR, Kandahar
Additionally, there are about 20 AH-64 currently in Afghanistan (US,UK,No).
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You are correct in saying that the Tornado GR.4 was not designed for CAS. It can, however, do the job as has been proven during Operation Telic in Iraq and exercise Green Flag in the US.
There was a report in the UK aviation magazine Airforces Monthly a while back stating the sterling job the GR.4 is doing in Iraq. Apparently many ground commanders prefer it, for several reasons, among them being the fact that it has good loiter time and is extremely accurate with Enhanced Paveway II and 27mm cannnon.
Like most strike aircraft today the GR.4 also carries a targeting pod and has an extremely important ISTAR role to fulfill in addition to CAS.
I believe the reason why GR.4 wasn't deployed to Afghanistan initially has to do with the fact that the UK government wasn't sure how long the deployment would last, they thought there was a good chance it might be short term. (As the then Sectratary for Defence stated - they might be home without firing a shot) Also they didn't know how demanding the deployment was going to be.(They initially only sent five or six GR.9's. There are now 11.) Thus they totally underestimated the impact the deployment would have on the three squadron GR.9 force.
Plus it must also not be forgotten that the runway at Kandahar was initially in bad shape. (Tailor made for STOVL Harriers.)
And also the GR.4 force was already doing the Iraq commitment. To sum up then.. a number of factors were at play.
We will almost certainly see the Harrier force relieved soon. Be it by Typhoon or GR.4 or both.