Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

[Terran]

I highly doubt the accuracy of the report that the US Army will be buying the Sentinels for several reasons. The Sentinel's mission is not a US Army mission but a US Air Force mission and the services protect their missions vigorously. By agreement between the USAF and USA the Army does not fly jet aircraft and has no capability to service jet engines and aircraft. The USA only flies helicopters and turboprops. Lastly, any purchase would require the consent of the US Congress either through a re-allocation of funds or an additional authorization. There has been no report of any Congressional request by DOD and there is no way any such request can/would be kept out of the public's eye. Quite frankly there would be blood on the floor in the Pentagon before the USAF would agree to the USA taking over one of its missions and flying jet aircraft.

The mission intended is to replace the RC12 Guardrail aircraft which is an army mission. Each of the US services has some degree of ISR mission capacity. US Army deploys Artemis demonstrator to Europe, eying high-speed ISR jet capability

Farther the US Army has operated business jets for a number of years. Starting with the UC35A Cessna Citation V Ultra it has operated the UC35 V encore, the C20 Gulf Stream III and the C37 Gulfstream V. Primary for both utility and Executive transportation. The barrier that blocks the US Army from operating jets has been loosened every decade. Primarily the Army is now prevented from operating Fighter and attacker jets as well as large cargo aircraft. But smaller platforms are apparently okay by the USAF.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

British Typhoon downs an aerial target, marking a first for the Typhoon, the ASRAAM, and in 72 years the RAF.
The incident occurred over Syria on December 14th this year, and the missile was fired against a "very small drone", as part of operation Shader.

British Typhoon Fighter Downed A Drone Over Syria For Its First Air-To-Air Kill

The historic engagement took place earlier this week and is the first successful aerial engagement for an RAF fighter in over 70 years.

www.thedrive.com

 

[ASSAIL]

British Typhoon downs an aerial target, marking a first for the Typhoon, the ASRAAM, and in 72 years the RAF.
The incident occurred over Syria on December 14th this year, and the missile was fired against a "very small drone", as part of operation Shader.

British Typhoon Fighter Downed A Drone Over Syria For Its First Air-To-Air Kill

The historic engagement took place earlier this week and is the first successful aerial engagement for an RAF fighter in over 70 years.

www.thedrive.com

That suits the RAF agenda but they conveniently forget to mention the 23 air to air kills achieved by the RN Sea Harriers during the FI crisis.

 

[south]

That suits the RAF agenda but they conveniently forget to mention the 23 air to air kills achieved by the RN Sea Harriers during the FI crisis.

Wow. Talk about agenda. A non-MOD publisher (Drive), talking to a Joint MOD spokesman and quoting the UK Secretary of Defence, yet still this nonsense.

Congrats to the team who are providing support to the guys and girls on the ground, in what is a relatively thankless task.

 

[aussienscale]

HAHA, Had to put this one up, have not seen this one ! Was from late last year, but just popped up in my feed for some reason, classic, would have thought they would have learnt after the Boaty McBoatface fiasco

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

It's sad to see this piece of aviation history in this condition.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570770772964290560

AVRO Vulcan runway excursion

AVRO Vulcan runway excursion On 16 September 2022 a fast taxirun of AVRO Vulcan XM655 at Wellesbourne-Mountford airfield (UK) ended in an unexpected way. While doing a practice run...

www.scramble.nl

I hope they can fully recover and repair this mighty Avro Vulcan.

 

[ngatimozart]

It's sad to see this piece of aviation history in this condition.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570770772964290560

AVRO Vulcan runway excursion

AVRO Vulcan runway excursion On 16 September 2022 a fast taxirun of AVRO Vulcan XM655 at Wellesbourne-Mountford airfield (UK) ended in an unexpected way. While doing a practice run...

www.scramble.nl

I hope they can fully recover and repair this mighty Avro Vulcan.

Unlikely to be any major damage to the aircraft. The undercart will have to be checked for damage of course and there will be a CAA enquiry into the overrun. They were a magnificent aircraft and Roy Chadwick was such a talented designer.

 

[At lakes]

These high speed taxi runs down the runway can be a little tricky. It is not the first time there was an incident involving a V Bomber from the Cold War era. The Handley Page Victor at an airshow was supposed to just complete a high speed run and then pull up and then taxi back. BUT the old girl said nope I am gonna fly and fly it did be it for a very short time.
It is alleged that the Civil Aviation Authorities at the show had gone to get a cup of tea or something similar and did not see the incident.

 

[ngatimozart]

These high speed taxi runs down the runway can be a little tricky. It is not the first time there was an incident involving a V Bomber from the Cold War era. The Handley Page Victor at an airshow was supposed to just complete a high speed run and then pull up and then taxi back. BUT the old girl said nope I am gonna fly and fly it did be it for a very short time.
It is alleged that the Civil Aviation Authorities at the show had gone to get a cup of tea or something similar and did not see the incident.

Ah yes. It was rather fortuitous that the denizens of the CAA were partaking of some juice of the empire when that happened.

 

[koxinga]

I am curious to understand the UK's continued embargo policy towards Argentina's acqusition plans for fighter jets.

Putting the issue aside of FAA actually being able to pay for them, they are continuing their current evaluation on three options:
1) G2G sale of Danish F-16A/B (reportedly, the evaluation team will be travelling to Demark in a couple of weeks)
2) Chinese JF-17s BLK 3(soft loans, with access to a full range of BVR/WVR munitions)
3) India Tejas Mk 1A (with assurances from the Indians that all British components have been replaced)

Would the UK ask the Americans to stop any transfer? Given the Tejas uses a GE F404IN engine, it is well within their capability to stop 1) and 3). But that will push the Argies to the Chinese, which I presume is the reason why the Americans are facilitating the Danish deal.

 

[ngatimozart]

I am curious to understand the UK's continued embargo policy towards Argentina's acqusition plans for fighter jets.

Putting the issue aside of FAA actually being able to pay for them, they are continuing their current evaluation on three options:
1) G2G sale of Danish F-16A/B (reportedly, the evaluation team will be travelling to Demark in a couple of weeks)
2) Chinese JF-17s BLK 3(soft loans, with access to a full range of BVR/WVR munitions)
3) India Tejas Mk 1A (with assurances from the Indians that all British components have been replaced)

Would the UK ask the Americans to stop any transfer? Given the Tejas uses a GE F404IN engine, it is well within their capability to stop 1) and 3). But that will push the Argies to the Chinese, which I presume is the reason why the Americans are facilitating the Danish deal.

It's real easy. The Argentine military junta invaded the Falkland Islands in 1982 which were British sovereign territory, They got their backsides hand to them when the British launched a military operation to retake the Falkland Islands and return it to British sovereignty. Since 1982 successive Argentine governments have never given up on their unfounded claims of sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. The residents of the Falkland Islands do not want to be part of Argentina and never have. They have always been British. Since 1982 successive British governments have vetoed any military equipment for Argentina that has British components in it, as it is entitled to do, because it still regards Argentina as a clear and present danger to the Falkland Islands.

 

[koxinga]

No no no, I am not questioning that or the history.

UK is entitled to do what it wants but practically, what options does it have if the sellers are China and/or the US (trying to stop China sale)

 

[John Fedup]

No no no, I am not questioning that or the history.

UK is entitled to do what it wants but practically, what options does it have if the sellers are China and/or the US (trying to stop China sale)

I think your first remark about Argentina’s ability to pay might solve the UK’s problem. I guess there is a possibility China might gift some jets in return for to right to ravage Argentina’s fisheries.

 

[STURM]

HAL is eager for a sale and naturally will say that any British components can be substituted but how long will it take? Also, what else can HAL throw in to make the deal more attractive to Argentina? With Malaysia HAL offered the RMAF assistance with sustaining its Su-30MKMs; what can it offer Argentina? I have no idea how much influence Britain has with India but we also cannot rule out the possibility that it might apply some pressure on the Indian government to block a deal.

On paper buying the JF-17s from Pakistan and China appears the most practical and realistic option. I have no doubts the Chinese will even be willing to offer a long term friendly low interest loan; as well as other goodies. On the pre owned Danish
F-16A/Bs even if fully upgraded are they a sound return of investment compared to Tejas and JF-17s?

On Britain trying its best to prevent Argentina from acquiring weaponry this is understandable but ultimately even if Argentina managed to acquire say 12 Rafales would it change things very much from the larger scheme of things? Argentina in 1982 had a far better equipped military and it had strategic surprise. For it to be able to again successfully invade the Falklands/Malvinas would entail the need for much, much more than just a squadron's worth of new fighters. On the British side however; when we factor in the current size of the RN, RAF and army; plus their present commitments; are there the resources needed to mount another Operation Corporate?

 

[koxinga]

A dozen jets will not dramatically change the status quo in the Falklands for sure. Likewise, the three way fight between Brazil, China and the US for the 6x6 requirements.

But I am still keen to examine the UK's policy response since the context is evolving to a great power contest between China and the US, instead of a straightforward arms embargo between the UK and Argentina.

 

[StobieWan]

There is an additional political element to Argentina acquiring arms - their own government - the military are still seen as being heavily tainted by the years of torture and political repression during the Junta. Argentina could have purchased aircraft decades ago, or even just the spares to run their existing ones - but instead, they've gone through this endless cycle of pricing up a deal then walking away (or just letting the deal wither on the vine)

In terms of Tejas, that runs a US engine and historically the US has been cooperative in blocking sales or transfers at the request of the UK government. There's actually no bar from the UK for the sales of aircraft per se - the US has offered upgraded Skyhawks with glass cockpits and F16 radars but the integration and transfer of BVR missiles has always been refused.

The Argentine government has had many offers in the past - Kfir, Skyhawks etc - but they keep not signing on the dotted line.
I think the blocks are more practically internal ones - finance and political inclination to once again support and equip their own military when Argentina in practical terms, has no real peer threat against it's mainland territories, has a poor cash balance and little inclination to fund rebuilding their air force.

 

[koxinga]

Sure. But my question has nothing to do with the Argentinian's internal constraints. It has been repeated ad nauseum that they are their own enemy and I get that.

What I am asking is UK's response / option w.r.t to the Chinese supplying arms to Argentina, on credit or otherwise.

Maybe Liz visits Taiwan?

 

[STURM]

I think we can safely assume that if indeed Argentina is serious and is able to fund this purchase there is very little Britain can do to stop it. Argentina has toyed around with the idea of buying fighters for years now but this time there appears to be a greater sense of urgency.

 

[swerve]

Urgency because they'll soon not have any functional jet fighters of any kind if they don't pull their fingers out, & even Peronistas can see that there should be limits to hostility towards the armed forces, however well-founded your suspicion of their motives & reliability are.

 

[StobieWan]

Sure. But my question has nothing to do with the Argentinian's internal constraints. It has been repeated ad nauseum that they are their own enemy and I get that.

What I am asking is UK's response / option w.r.t to the Chinese supplying arms to Argentina, on credit or otherwise.

Maybe Liz visits Taiwan?

That's a "someone else's problem" I'm afraid - hence it not being addressed, The UK has comparatively little diplomatic pull with China, nor does China include British components so no option to squelch the deal via legal means. If the Argentinian government wants to buy Chinese, there's little we can do but send them a sternly disappointed letter indicating we might not invite them to tea for a bit.