Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

the concerned

Active Member
When the new protector UAV enters service I was thinking about future possible armaments. How about the LMM missile and Sea venom for a possible maritime strike mission with the gulf in particular. You could combine or potentially the UAV could carry 20 LMM missiles.
 
Sorry if this has been asked before but with the UK using the Eurofighter as a testbed for the Tempest are they going to fit the agility upgrades that were talked about a few years ago?
The Eurofighter is already agile so seeing it with even more agility could be pretty amazing even if just for airshow crowds.
 

At lakes

Well-Known Member
I lifted this photo from the Defence Connect site, a story about the RAF’s renewed campaign against ISIS. I am interested to know what the two things are sticking straight out right angles to the fuselage just forward of the of the main wings. or is it an error in the photo so people like me will ask stupid questions
 

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south

Well-Known Member
I lifted this photo from the Defence Connect site, a story about the RAF’s renewed campaign against ISIS. I am interested to know what the two things are sticking straight out right angles to the fuselage just forward of the of the main wings. or is it an error in the photo so people like me will ask stupid questions
its a CGI photo with an error.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro

south

Well-Known Member
An interesting article that puts case for the acquisition of extra P-8A Poseidons and have them equipped with the AAS as a replacement for the Sentinel R1 aircraft. A Case for Replacing the RAF’s Sentinel R.1 Fleet with Additional P-8A Poseidon Aircraft. It does make sense and would be a good capability, however whether the MOD mandarins and pollies would agree is a completely different story.
A well put article. The glaring issue is the treatment of the Sentinel R.1 fleet, a lack of investment makes the existing capability untenable. This is the same as what happened with the E-3 fleet, which got so far behind the upgrade curve when compared to US, French and NATO E-3's that it wasn't financially viable to upgrade. I guess you could argue that worked out well in the end - they got E-7's out of it!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A well put article. The glaring issue is the treatment of the Sentinel R.1 fleet, a lack of investment makes the existing capability untenable. This is the same as what happened with the E-3 fleet, which got so far behind the upgrade curve when compared to US, French and NATO E-3's that it wasn't financially viable to upgrade. I guess you could argue that worked out well in the end - they got E-7's out of it!
But isn't that the story of pommy defence in the last 30 years? It just seems to go from one clusterf⁸* to another, costing them significant more treasure in the end. Agree totally about the E-7A and if they follow the RAAF lead, methodology and stay in lockstep, then they will have one immense capability. However I can't see the mandarins in the MOD following that path because they'll see it as losing control.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yep.

Politicians waste money with penny-wise, pound-foolish decisions such as stringing out projects to push spending into the future, forcing painful decisions when that money finally has to be spent, & stop-start funding which starves industry of money thus forcing capacity cuts (e.g. layoffs of skilled workers) & thus start-up costs when the money finally arrives & work resumes. Even politicians sometimes recognise the problems, but they don't seem to be able to help themselves when it comes to short-term decisions (or lack of decisions) overriding long-term policy, e.g. the BAE shipbuilding deal, where to stop the waste of stop-start funding the government agreed (& made it legally enforceable by BAE) to spend a minimum sum per year, to ensure the retention of skills & facilities - & then failed to order ships to be built by those workers in those facilities! So we ended up with River Batch 2 OPVs, just to get something useful for the money the politicians had promised BAE & to keep those skilled workers going.

Building the QEs at Rosyth was another one. It was denied that it was chosen because of proximity to Gordon Brown's constituency, but that denial is scoffed at. We now have a yard which is set up for maintenance of the carriers which they can only get into or out of when the tide is just right & the weather's good. In the month when Queen Elizabeth first left the basin, there was a six day window when the tides would allow her out, & bad weather could have closed that window. The minimal clearances & sharp angles mean that a lot of tugs are needed & risk damage to the ships. A lot of money was spent to make the yard capable of building the carriers, & now there's a yard which for the moment is the only one fitted out to dock them, but is difficult to use & struggling to get other work for that big dock. It's a bit of a white elephant.

The armed forces are also guilty of short-term thinking, as well as wanting everything bespoke & then complaining they don't get enough money.

And so on . . . Nimrod MRA4, the sorry saga of AFV procurement . . . .
 

swerve

Super Moderator
A well put article. The glaring issue is the treatment of the Sentinel R.1 fleet, a lack of investment makes the existing capability untenable. This is the same as what happened with the E-3 fleet, which got so far behind the upgrade curve when compared to US, French and NATO E-3's that it wasn't financially viable to upgrade. I guess you could argue that worked out well in the end - they got E-7's out of it!
The Sentinel lack of investment has been dictated by the repeated plans to retire the aircraft. You don't spend a lot of money on something you're about to scrap. If the retirement keeps getting postponed, but always just a short time in the future, you're stuffed.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
An interesting article that puts case for the acquisition of extra P-8A Poseidons and have them equipped with the AAS as a replacement for the Sentinel R1 aircraft. A Case for Replacing the RAF’s Sentinel R.1 Fleet with Additional P-8A Poseidon Aircraft. It does make sense and would be a good capability, however whether the MOD mandarins and pollies would agree is a completely different story.
We have the Sentinels, they're paid for, & we have crews & logistics. Like P-8, the basic aircraft is a widely used commercial type. It should be cheaper to fly a Sentinel than a P-8, & modifying the radar for marine recce is supposed to be low-risk & relatively low cost. IIRC I read it was mainly or wholly software.

Unless it would be very expensive to refurbish them, it seems likely that it'd be significantly cheaper to keep them flying than buy & operate some more P-8s. The question is whether they're useful enough of the time, which could be got round by the MR radar modification.

Disposing of them & buying more P-8s seems like more of the same old stuff: failing to invest in what we have, then throwing it away & buying something new. We should sort out our maintenance & upgrade paths.
 

south

Well-Known Member
The Sentinel lack of investment has been dictated by the repeated plans to retire the aircraft. You don't spend a lot of money on something you're about to scrap. If the retirement keeps getting postponed, but always just a short time in the future, you're stuffed.
I know, but it highlights the very short term view taken with regards to the capability that has been in significant amount of demand. Sentinel R1 to be scrapped next year due to 'obsolescence'


But isn't that the story of pommy defence in the last 30 years? It just seems to go from one clusterf⁸* to another, costing them significant more treasure in the end. Agree totally about the E-7A and if they follow the RAAF lead, methodology and stay in lockstep, then they will have one immense capability. However I can't see the mandarins in the MOD following that path because they'll see it as losing control.
From what I can gather, the RAF/UK MOD intent to work alongside the RAAF to maintain the capability, but I guess time will tell.
 

SteveR

Active Member
Just asking could any of the capability be replaced by some global hawks rather than extra p8's. Which one is cheaper to operate.
Indeed as part of NATO the UK has just started sharing the NATO Alliance Ground Surveillance (AGS) with RQ-4D Global Hawks:

So the UK is swapping a national ground surveillance capability with an equivalent Allied capability.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Indeed as part of NATO the UK has just started sharing the NATO Alliance Ground Surveillance (AGS) with RQ-4D Global Hawks:

So the UK is swapping a national ground surveillance capability with an equivalent Allied capability.
Do you have a source for the UK component?
 

SteveR

Active Member
Do you have a source for the UK component?
The phrase 'equivalent Allied capability' I used refers to the UK integration into NATO intelligence staff and command structure that I was once briefed on by the RAF. Just as UK is warned by the NATO combined air picture of TU-95 flights rounding North Cape for the Atlantic so AGS derived ground picture will also be shared as it affects UK in the NATO area of operations.
It appears from the only source that I can find for AGS membership (Wikipedia):
that UK is not a partner in this program so will not have AGS tasking rights. But in this post-COVID19 world nations have to makes sensible fiscal choices of what sovereign capabilities they need to retain and those they can share with their allies. UK still has the Protector program to provide a measure of the same capabilities as Sentinel and may choose to buy a share of NATO AGS if it wants tasking rights.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
@SteveR Using "... sensible fiscal choices of what sovereign capabilities they need to retain and those they can share with their allies" and UK in the same context is somewhat of an oxymoron. I really can't see them doing that because they have the tendency to make short sighted decisions that end up costing them more money down the track.
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
Politicians waste money with penny-wise, pound-foolish decisions such as stringing out projects to push spending into the future, forcing painful decisions when that money finally has to be spent, & stop-start funding which starves industry of money thus forcing capacity cuts (e.g. layoffs of skilled workers) & thus start-up costs when the money finally arrives & work resumes.
The issue is one of differing timeframes. For defence capabilities the LoT of any capability is usually between 15 and 30 years, with a mid-life upgrade occuring for long LoT capabilities. There is also the possibility of LoTE to drag perhaps 5 -10 more years of use from the capability. For politicians the timeframe is only 3-4 years (depending on the country), being getting through the next election. The public servants don't care at all so long as they continue to be paid, so they are not invested in the capability as the uniformed services are. Politicians and public servants will always find a reason why something cannot or should not be done, rather than finding a way to make it happen.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
But isn't that the story of pommy defence in the last 30 years? It just seems to go from one clusterf⁸* to another, costing them significant more treasure in the end. Agree totally about the E-7A and if they follow the RAAF lead, methodology and stay in lockstep, then they will have one immense capability. However I can't see the mandarins in the MOD following that path because they'll see it as losing control.

Recently, slightly better batting average I'd say - the AH-64E purchase - straight off the shelf instead of a repeat of the bespoke Westland-Augusta thing first time around, P8 and E7 plus getting back into Boxer - those all look like sensible decisions to get us back into a situation where we're buying more in line with what the big dog in the yard has and getting us into a refresh cycle that shares support burdens with other users.

I'm not claiming instant perfection here, just that it's at least a bit encouraging. If we'd gone with the Voyager/Saab proposal for E3 replacement for instance, I'd be frothing at the mouth.
 
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